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on this episode of skeptical earlier and

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you were kind of defending the

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mainstream media saying hey they don't

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get everything wrong certainly they

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don't get everything wrong the

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assistants II in my perspective it's

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highly coherent here's developing it I

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feel that you're not like I don't know

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we you know maybe we need to spend six

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hours hanging this out I don't think

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it's gonna happen in one podcast okay I

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think it's okay to disagree

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so I mean I don't have a problem that

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you don't see my ideas as coherent or

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even sensible or anything like that or

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that I don't see yours as coherent I

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mean that's really not the issue that's

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then gonna meet you at the same level of

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force that you're meeting me because

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otherwise they feel that you know it's

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just like I'm you know yeah I'm not even

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getting a listening hear I'm sorry you

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know that's why I pause before to make

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sure that you had a chance to talk so

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let me kind of respond to what you're

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saying in really a new way okay that I

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think relates to your book in an

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important way in the way that is

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synergistic with my approach because you

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know is it possible that the material

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world that we're talking about right

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because there's this spiritual extended

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consciousness world that we're talking

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about early on that may exist and may

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have a totally different set of rules

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than this material and justifies the

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means we have to do this or do that

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those two worlds could be different in

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some important ways that we don't

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realize I'm just throwing that out as a

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possibility so isn't it possible that

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it's true what a lot of spiritual

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teachers tell us is that in some way we

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don't quite understand the world is

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always perfect just the way that it is

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[Music]

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welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics today's guests definitely

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fits in that category Daniel Pinchbeck

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is a leading thinker about consciousness

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and he has a lot to say about science in

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his new book how soon is now so why did

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we wind up having a conversation that

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sounds like some kind of freaking

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political debate well I don't know but I

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think I have some ideas and I need to

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talk about him because this crap has

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been going on for too long now ever

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since this crazy election in the United

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States a lot of people in the

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parapsychology near-death experience

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extended consciousness whatever you want

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to call this realm have been on tilt and

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they seem to have a completely different

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political viewpoint than I do which is

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fine except that I'm tired of these

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folks completely ignoring my position

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because I don't agree with them look as

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I've stated on this show

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politically I am post-partisan

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I think Bush was a war criminal I think

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Cheney and Rumsfeld were war criminals I

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am NOT a Republican and I voted for

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Obama the first time but when he turned

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out to be of the same ilk of the same

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cloth as Bush and started locking up

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whistleblowers and doubling down on the

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Patriot Act and doing everything

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possible to perpetuate war and do all

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that other crazy stuff I voted against

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him and in this latest election cycle I

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voted for Hillary truth be told I voted

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for Hillary to keep peace in the house

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and because I'm in California my vote

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did it matter and I didn't think there

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is any way in hell that outsider like

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Trump could win but still I voted for

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Hillary because I don't put any stock in

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this Republican Democrat nonsense but as

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you'll hear in today's interview and as

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you've heard if you've checked into the

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skeptical forum lately people that are

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all pissed off about the political

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situation in the United States cannot

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hear any of that

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and that's scary you know I've said on

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this show it's about following the data

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and then it's not really about following

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the data because people don't change

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their positions well let me go back it's

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about following the freaking data if you

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think climate change I can't why I can't

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even say that with a straight face if

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you think global warming is real fine

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bring it bring the data but don't expect

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everyone to agree with you because they

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don't because there's a lot of very

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qualified climatologist as we explored

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on this show probably at least 40% who

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don't agree with you and if you think as

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Daniel does that the only reason people

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don't agree with you is that they

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haven't been presented with the options

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as you see them you're living in bizarro

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land no matter what your position is

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there's people who've explored the other

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side and come to a different conclusion

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that's the nature of debate so let's all

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come to our senses as flawed as science

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is let's lean on science a little bit to

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try and get a first cut at figuring out

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what the data is really telling us so

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this interview with Daniel Pinchbeck was

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contentious but you know what it was a

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good dialogue to have and it's a good

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dialogue to get out there it's a good

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dialogue to stimulate conversation in

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real thinking no matter which side you

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take and no matter who you agree with

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and let me tell you something else if

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you think this is a discussion about

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climate change or global warming it's

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not it's a dialogue about how we take

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our understanding of who we are and how

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we then project that on to other people

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how we interact with them how we take

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that and figure out how we're all going

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to do the next thing that we're going to

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do together so I have a couple of

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thoughts on this but a whole off to the

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end of the interview I also want to fill

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you in on the very interesting email

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exchange that I had with Daniel after

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the interview so stick around here comes

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my interview with Daniel Pinchbeck

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author of how soon is now today we

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welcome Daniel Pinchbeck - skeptic Oh

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Daniel is an author

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well-known figure in the modern

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consciousness transformation movement

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that we talk so much about on skeptic oh

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he's the creator of Evolver dotnet and

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reality sandwich which we've spoken

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about and had interviews about before

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his books include breaking open the head

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the return of Quetzalcoatl initiation to

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global transformation Daniel welcome to

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skeptic oh thanks so much for joining me

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thanks for having me so let's start by

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talking about the title how soon is now

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uh it's a little bit off I found from a

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lot of the content in the book what were

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you trying to get at there with the

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title uh well actually

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late in the book I talked about there's

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a chapter I look at the idea of

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revolution and I talked about a little

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bit about this Herbert Moore Cuza who

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talked about how humanity feels and

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underlying gilts over something that

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we've postponed and that thing that we

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postponed is actually our own liberation

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so for me that that moment when we were

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no longer in a state of postponement you

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know when there's no longer a delay

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space in a sense between the world that

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we you don't know that we should be

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bringing into being in the world that

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we're kind of inhabiting you know that

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that would be the now I think that's a

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great point and it's something that we

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talk about a lot here and the point

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being this idea of action right action

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when to take action you know from a

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Buddhist or a yoga critical perspective

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that's of course a deep question because

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there's always the question of who is

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really acting anyway and what actions

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are the right actions and then from a

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worldly perspective there's the question

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of unintended consequences what are some

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of your thinking about the question of

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right action you're just touching on it

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there a minute ago but it's complicated

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right yeah it's complicated I mean um

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you know I definitely think that it's

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you know actually I explored ideas

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around kind of freewill determinism in

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the 2012 book and I ended up you know

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kind

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putting out the idea that it's

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inherently paradoxical you know that on

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the one hand it's all causing effects

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and even on the psychological and the

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level in terms of our social

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conditioning but then you know if you

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shift your identity if you take a more

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like Eastern mystical perspective you

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know there's kind of one consciousness

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that's unfolding through all of it and

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you know you don't have to identify with

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your little kind of ego condition you

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could actually kind of identify with I

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am that you know which is what Eastern

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mysticism talks about right but then

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when people are trying to connect that

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and operationalize that you know whether

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you're the Dalai Lama or tich not Han

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there's these deeper questions about

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what is the right action in your book in

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your book this present book you talked a

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lot about huge social changes that

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you're advocating that I think a lot of

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people would kind of pull back a little

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bit and say hey is that the kind of

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right action are we sure that that's the

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right thing for me to do personally and

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then from a societal standpoint if each

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individual is choosing what's the right

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thing for their journey how do we how do

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we come together without something

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that's coercive or these other bad

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things that we've seen so much in the

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last I don't know decade and beyond yeah

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so yeah I mean you know I guess I always

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try to step back and take a kind of

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systemic perspective and you know for

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instance I kind of look at look at our

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situation almost from an evolutionary

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biological viewpoint and in my own way

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not in the kind of reductive way that

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maybe some of the Albright people have

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been using it but you know I think in a

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way there is an evolution towards you

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know as us gaining a realization of

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ourselves as a kind of planetary super

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organism that has a symbiotic

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relationship with the ecology of the

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earth is all system and the fact that we

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you know damage the environment to the

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extent that we have is kind of you know

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almost gonna ultimately force that

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realization you know either through you

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know more or less Cataclysm you know I

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would say and ultimately we're gonna

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have to find a way to bring our actions

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and alignment you know with what the

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acquisition

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can allow for on this planet you know we

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may also be able to get off this planet

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and go to other planets and try other

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things so so yeah so you know I do feel

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that you know the you know I guess I

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feel sympathetic with the Buddhist idea

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that there's an underlying you know kind

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of compassion that we can tap into and

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empathy and altruism and that those are

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going to be kind of you know ways that

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we guide ourselves back into balance you

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know I mean and then some of that

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requires being willing to take

274
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responsibility for you know the the

275
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larger collective the human family as a

276
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whole the the community of life that

277
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we're now inflicting so much harm on so

278
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that that you know so if we did so if we

279
00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:39,540
were to just you know collectively

280
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decide that that was a direction that we

281
00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:44,370
wanted to go into you know then the book

282
00:11:48,140 --> 00:11:46,650
then looks at the ways we could go in

283
00:11:50,810 --> 00:11:48,150
that direction how we would have to

284
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redesign our technical systems and our

285
00:11:56,270 --> 00:11:53,700
social systems to allow us to have a

286
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long-term continuity and thrive here

287
00:12:02,630 --> 00:12:00,080
okay at the same time the book is pretty

288
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:02,640
strong in terms of taking a position in

289
00:12:07,100 --> 00:12:05,130
terms of what we have to do that to me

290
00:12:10,220 --> 00:12:07,110
is a little bit at odds with some of

291
00:12:14,030 --> 00:12:10,230
that you write about the Paris climate

292
00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:14,040
talks of 2015 and you say which a lot of

293
00:12:18,110 --> 00:12:15,690
people agree with you you know they

294
00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:18,120
don't go nearly far enough and that we

295
00:12:22,700 --> 00:12:20,490
need to this is your writing eliminate

296
00:12:25,370 --> 00:12:22,710
wasteful industries severely limit

297
00:12:27,980 --> 00:12:25,380
consumption reduce air and car travel to

298
00:12:31,370 --> 00:12:27,990
a minimum restrict meat-eating globally

299
00:12:33,170 --> 00:12:31,380
I mean I think a lot of people in this

300
00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:33,180
collective spiritual community would

301
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:34,890
find that a little bit heavy-handed and

302
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:36,330
a little bit like how are you going to

303
00:12:41,690 --> 00:12:38,730
get there Daniel without being just as

304
00:12:44,210 --> 00:12:41,700
coercive just as heavy-handed as the

305
00:12:47,540 --> 00:12:44,220
people you're trying to unseat no I

306
00:12:50,830 --> 00:12:47,550
really don't believe in coercion

307
00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:50,840
I believe that as I said you know my

308
00:12:55,790 --> 00:12:54,240
presumption is that you know given the

309
00:12:59,660 --> 00:12:55,800
opportunity people will want to make

310
00:13:00,860 --> 00:12:59,670
changes for the benefit of their

311
00:13:03,140 --> 00:13:00,870
children and there

312
00:13:05,570 --> 00:13:03,150
and their descendants and yes according

313
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:05,580
to their huge preponderance of

314
00:13:10,370 --> 00:13:08,130
scientists we need to radically reduce

315
00:13:11,570 --> 00:13:10,380
you know and then eliminate you know co2

316
00:13:13,580 --> 00:13:11,580
that we're putting into the atmosphere

317
00:13:16,100 --> 00:13:13,590
and they talked about something like

318
00:13:19,970 --> 00:13:16,110
eight ten percent co2 reduction per year

319
00:13:21,950 --> 00:13:19,980
is what we should be aiming at and I

320
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:21,960
know that sounds almost haha you know

321
00:13:27,230 --> 00:13:23,970
when we think about trumped and you know

322
00:13:29,090 --> 00:13:27,240
Rex Tillerson and drilling and so on but

323
00:13:34,370 --> 00:13:29,100
I'm hoping that in a sense what's

324
00:13:37,750 --> 00:13:34,380
happening now is kind of you know almost

325
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:37,760
like a last gasp of an old system and

326
00:13:43,820 --> 00:13:40,650
hopefully without it bringing about too

327
00:13:47,270 --> 00:13:43,830
much more destruction it will also help

328
00:13:49,310 --> 00:13:47,280
us have an awakening as to where we do

329
00:13:52,010 --> 00:13:49,320
need to go in the immediate future and

330
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:52,020
yes so you know so for instance I'm

331
00:13:57,500 --> 00:13:53,850
interested in you know creating

332
00:13:59,840 --> 00:13:57,510
voluntary opportunities for people to

333
00:14:02,270 --> 00:13:59,850
say like well you know what do I value

334
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:02,280
and how do I want to act and you know

335
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:04,890
would it be possible for me to you know

336
00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:07,650
invest less on another car or on a more

337
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:09,360
vacations or on you know keep eating

338
00:14:13,970 --> 00:14:11,250
meat you know if I know that's gonna

339
00:14:16,190 --> 00:14:13,980
have a damaging impact on you know the

340
00:14:18,530 --> 00:14:16,200
other community of life and and and my

341
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:18,540
own descendants and so on you know so I

342
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:19,890
think in a way it's very much about

343
00:14:24,850 --> 00:14:23,250
about messaging and and about yeah how

344
00:14:27,260 --> 00:14:24,860
its presented and the kind of social

345
00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:27,270
tools that also could be offered to

346
00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:31,310
people to to to to go in that direction

347
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:34,530
if that makes any sense to you it does I

348
00:14:40,100 --> 00:14:37,530
mean like you I consider myself an

349
00:14:43,820 --> 00:14:40,110
environmentalist super concerned about

350
00:14:45,590 --> 00:14:43,830
the number of environmental crises we

351
00:14:48,610 --> 00:14:45,600
seem to be facing that seem impossible

352
00:14:50,630 --> 00:14:48,620
to solve you know but I'm also

353
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:50,640
interested in considering the

354
00:14:55,130 --> 00:14:53,370
possibility that some of the scientists

355
00:14:58,700 --> 00:14:55,140
are on the other side of in particular

356
00:15:00,710 --> 00:14:58,710
the co2 issue you know may have

357
00:15:03,650 --> 00:15:00,720
something to say and I think that

358
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:03,660
they're not often listened to in the

359
00:15:07,660 --> 00:15:05,850
same way that everyone else is listened

360
00:15:11,510 --> 00:15:07,670
to you know just this week we had

361
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:11,520
Climategate 3.0 where this whistleblower

362
00:15:16,730 --> 00:15:13,770
came out yet again same

363
00:15:20,030 --> 00:15:16,740
story said hey you know high-level

364
00:15:24,380 --> 00:15:20,040
respected guy preparing the report for

365
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:24,390
the 2015 Paris conference says hey I was

366
00:15:29,330 --> 00:15:26,970
prevented from presenting the real data

367
00:15:33,140 --> 00:15:29,340
there was an organized effort to present

368
00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:33,150
a picture that didn't conform with what

369
00:15:37,550 --> 00:15:34,920
I had found which was there was a stall

370
00:15:40,370 --> 00:15:37,560
in global warming so you know we all

371
00:15:44,090 --> 00:15:40,380
accept that Big Oil is out there and

372
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:44,100
they're conspiring to coerce science but

373
00:15:48,650 --> 00:15:46,560
gosh after Climategate to climate in

374
00:15:49,940 --> 00:15:48,660
this latest thing don't we also have to

375
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:49,950
acknowledge that there's all these other

376
00:15:55,130 --> 00:15:52,770
players on the other side who are just

377
00:15:58,250 --> 00:15:55,140
muddying up the waters how are we

378
00:16:00,860 --> 00:15:58,260
supposed to really come to the kind of

379
00:16:03,890 --> 00:16:00,870
conclusion that would allow us to make

380
00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:03,900
those kind of monumental changes that

381
00:16:09,050 --> 00:16:05,910
you're talking about or that we all know

382
00:16:11,510 --> 00:16:09,060
if you buy into that kind of global

383
00:16:13,550 --> 00:16:11,520
warming scenario are absolutely

384
00:16:15,530 --> 00:16:13,560
necessary because you're right if you if

385
00:16:18,050 --> 00:16:15,540
you accept that then those changes have

386
00:16:19,970 --> 00:16:18,060
to be made how do we sort out both the

387
00:16:23,060 --> 00:16:19,980
science and then the decision to make

388
00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:23,070
those kind of changes I mean I guess I'm

389
00:16:27,710 --> 00:16:24,510
you know I end up being a little bit

390
00:16:30,770 --> 00:16:27,720
flummoxed by by the people who still are

391
00:16:32,540 --> 00:16:30,780
kind of stuck in the denier mode you

392
00:16:35,150 --> 00:16:32,550
know I mean I you know I'm 50 years old

393
00:16:37,460 --> 00:16:35,160
you know and I can remember how you know

394
00:16:38,990 --> 00:16:37,470
much colder it was in winters and in

395
00:16:41,060 --> 00:16:39,000
this winter in New York you know they

396
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:41,070
were like in late January before wearing

397
00:16:44,630 --> 00:16:43,410
t-shirts you know when my mother was a

398
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:44,640
girl she was you know they were

399
00:16:49,340 --> 00:16:46,050
sometimes able to walk across the Hudson

400
00:16:51,620 --> 00:16:49,350
River it was frozen over so much that's

401
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:51,630
never happened in my lifetime we're

402
00:16:56,330 --> 00:16:54,170
putting in 1 million tons of co2

403
00:16:59,510 --> 00:16:56,340
industrial co2 in the atmosphere every

404
00:17:00,800 --> 00:16:59,520
hour we know that it's an arrow sheath I

405
00:17:02,570 --> 00:17:00,810
mean it's like you know it's

406
00:17:05,090 --> 00:17:02,580
quantifiably measurable right we have

407
00:17:07,010 --> 00:17:05,100
more than 400 parts per million co2 in

408
00:17:08,930 --> 00:17:07,020
the atmosphere now the last time there

409
00:17:10,220 --> 00:17:08,940
was this much co2 in the atmosphere we

410
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:10,230
know that sea levels were 100 foot

411
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:12,690
higher feet higher and you know the

412
00:17:15,890 --> 00:17:13,650
temperatures were 4 degrees Celsius

413
00:17:16,370 --> 00:17:15,900
warmer you know so that just doesn't

414
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:16,380
happen

415
00:17:21,050 --> 00:17:19,050
like it like an incremental shift there

416
00:17:24,070 --> 00:17:21,060
there are breaks in the system and

417
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:24,080
sudden you know kind of you know jumps

418
00:17:28,069 --> 00:17:26,010
partially you know released

419
00:17:30,169 --> 00:17:28,079
like the frozen deposits of methane

420
00:17:32,150 --> 00:17:30,179
which are already starting to thaw which

421
00:17:34,669 --> 00:17:32,160
were 30 times more potent as a

422
00:17:36,409 --> 00:17:34,679
heat-trapping gas than co2 you know

423
00:17:38,419 --> 00:17:36,419
beyond the very very obvious and

424
00:17:39,830 --> 00:17:38,429
overwhelming evidence of the co2 that

425
00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:39,840
for some reason people have a hard time

426
00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:42,480
believing you know we can also look at

427
00:17:45,980 --> 00:17:44,130
things like ocean acidification

428
00:17:48,260 --> 00:17:45,990
you know the oceans are 30% more acidic

429
00:17:49,970 --> 00:17:48,270
they were 40 years ago this is leading

430
00:17:52,190 --> 00:17:49,980
to a breakdown of the coral reefs around

431
00:17:54,110 --> 00:17:52,200
the planet the coral reefs hold a huge

432
00:17:57,970 --> 00:17:54,120
amount of ocean biodiversity so that's a

433
00:18:00,950 --> 00:17:57,980
big loss you know we can also look at

434
00:18:02,990 --> 00:18:00,960
yeah like oh you know many many other

435
00:18:04,669 --> 00:18:03,000
factors that are that are that are

436
00:18:06,919 --> 00:18:04,679
happening and we look at deforestation

437
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:06,929
the loss of the forest I mean of species

438
00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:08,010
extinction that's the other one I was

439
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:10,110
gonna point out you know we according to

440
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:12,000
the UN estimates you know we're losing

441
00:18:16,789 --> 00:18:14,850
150 to 200 species per day I believe

442
00:18:18,980 --> 00:18:16,799
they estimate there's 8.7 million total

443
00:18:21,140 --> 00:18:18,990
species on the planet so if you said do

444
00:18:23,090 --> 00:18:21,150
the math and that equals to us losing

445
00:18:25,330 --> 00:18:23,100
10% of the earth's remaining

446
00:18:27,799 --> 00:18:25,340
biodiversity every 10 to 15 years right

447
00:18:29,780 --> 00:18:27,809
so and we're that's happening cuz we're

448
00:18:32,210 --> 00:18:29,790
you know taking away the tropical

449
00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:32,220
forests and other densely you know

450
00:18:37,700 --> 00:18:35,370
inhabited regions converting the soybean

451
00:18:39,860 --> 00:18:37,710
plantations and developing them you know

452
00:18:43,130 --> 00:18:39,870
whatever you know so so you know how

453
00:18:45,350 --> 00:18:43,140
many more decades or 15-year periods a

454
00:18:46,850 --> 00:18:45,360
10% loss of biodiversity can we stand

455
00:18:48,890 --> 00:18:46,860
because we've also learned that the

456
00:18:51,020 --> 00:18:48,900
whole web of life is tightly meshed

457
00:18:52,700 --> 00:18:51,030
together so for instance if we wipe out

458
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:52,710
the bees and the butterflies you know

459
00:18:56,780 --> 00:18:54,330
that that's all of our pollinating

460
00:18:58,430 --> 00:18:56,790
species and so on so I honestly think

461
00:19:00,620 --> 00:18:58,440
that this is a this is a ridiculous

462
00:19:03,860 --> 00:19:00,630
argument to be having you know we're

463
00:19:05,690 --> 00:19:03,870
clearly in an ecological mega crisis and

464
00:19:08,210 --> 00:19:05,700
there's every indicator from almost

465
00:19:10,250 --> 00:19:08,220
every reputable scientist tells us that

466
00:19:12,409 --> 00:19:10,260
and there's a lot of money on the other

467
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:12,419
side so we don't even know how clever

468
00:19:16,159 --> 00:19:14,010
and cutting these people are terms of

469
00:19:18,110 --> 00:19:16,169
spreading disinformation through these

470
00:19:21,409 --> 00:19:18,120
likes you know so cold climate gates and

471
00:19:24,049 --> 00:19:21,419
so on and it really feeds on a kind of

472
00:19:26,570 --> 00:19:24,059
like rebel hyper individualistic mindset

473
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:26,580
that is it has also led to this all

474
00:19:31,340 --> 00:19:29,610
right thing I'm sorry to say you know so

475
00:19:32,750 --> 00:19:31,350
I would I would I would I would I would

476
00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:32,760
I would if I were you develop some

477
00:19:39,830 --> 00:19:36,710
skepticism towards your skepticism well

478
00:19:41,930 --> 00:19:39,840
there's so much there to pull apart and

479
00:19:45,649 --> 00:19:41,940
think that's the hard part of this issue

480
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:45,659
I am with you on the species reduction I

481
00:19:51,409 --> 00:19:47,970
am with you on the environmental

482
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:51,419
problems that we face acidification of

483
00:19:56,269 --> 00:19:53,970
the ocean coral reef all these are huge

484
00:19:59,299 --> 00:19:56,279
problems but what a lot of people are

485
00:20:01,730 --> 00:19:59,309
saying and I am kind of in their camp in

486
00:20:05,930 --> 00:20:01,740
a lot of ways is that a lot of the co2

487
00:20:08,269 --> 00:20:05,940
stuff and the global warming stuff gets

488
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:08,279
lumped into a lot of other things where

489
00:20:13,940 --> 00:20:11,490
it becomes this mishmash of issues so is

490
00:20:17,090 --> 00:20:13,950
the planet warming yes there's no

491
00:20:19,310 --> 00:20:17,100
disagreement and even if you take I love

492
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:19,320
the word denier you know I mean because

493
00:20:23,659 --> 00:20:21,450
you can just apply that label to anybody

494
00:20:25,549 --> 00:20:23,669
and then they're smeared but if you take

495
00:20:27,860 --> 00:20:25,559
the climate deniers like the person I

496
00:20:30,169 --> 00:20:27,870
always point to is climatologist to

497
00:20:33,769 --> 00:20:30,179
Georgia Tech Judith curry who is

498
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:33,779
extremely highly regarded is really

499
00:20:37,159 --> 00:20:35,490
pretty level-headed middle of the road

500
00:20:40,149 --> 00:20:37,169
and who's someone if you listen to her

501
00:20:43,549 --> 00:20:40,159
says look I was on the side of the

502
00:20:46,669 --> 00:20:43,559
consensus more or less until Climategate

503
00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:46,679
happened and I really look in 2009 and I

504
00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:48,240
really looked at the data and I looked

505
00:20:51,799 --> 00:20:50,130
at the manipulation of it and it caused

506
00:20:53,149 --> 00:20:51,809
me to take another look at that now

507
00:20:55,340 --> 00:20:53,159
there's a number of other people who

508
00:20:57,889 --> 00:20:55,350
have taken that same position so do we

509
00:21:00,019 --> 00:20:57,899
really have to say you know oh this is

510
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:00,029
all settled science we all kind of know

511
00:21:04,310 --> 00:21:01,890
anything know everything when there's a

512
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:04,320
lot of pretty important well-informed

513
00:21:10,430 --> 00:21:08,010
people who are saying you know if you

514
00:21:13,370 --> 00:21:10,440
really look at the ice core samples like

515
00:21:15,049 --> 00:21:13,380
you talked about in your book just we

516
00:21:16,639 --> 00:21:15,059
can't get into a big climate debate it

517
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:16,649
it take the whole time but in the book

518
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:19,770
you say look at the ice core samples why

519
00:21:23,389 --> 00:21:21,450
don't we not I mean since I'm what you

520
00:21:25,310 --> 00:21:23,399
know you're bringing up people always do

521
00:21:27,889 --> 00:21:25,320
the bigger of one or two renegade

522
00:21:29,659 --> 00:21:27,899
scientists you know I mean side of

523
00:21:32,570 --> 00:21:29,669
renegade scientists she was called to

524
00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:32,580
testify in Congress I mean we can

525
00:21:36,529 --> 00:21:34,110
obviously see everywhere we go around

526
00:21:38,419 --> 00:21:36,539
the planet you know we have huge cities

527
00:21:40,460 --> 00:21:38,429
we know we're putting in a million tons

528
00:21:42,279 --> 00:21:40,470
of co2 in the atmosphere we know the

529
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:42,289
measure that it's gotten from you know

530
00:21:47,180 --> 00:21:44,850
275 which was stable climate - correct

531
00:21:49,340 --> 00:21:47,190
no one no one disagrees with you Daniel

532
00:21:52,409 --> 00:21:49,350
no the oceans are absorbing a huge

533
00:21:54,389 --> 00:21:52,419
amount of industrial co2 you know that

534
00:21:56,940 --> 00:21:54,399
30% more acidic over the last 40 years

535
00:21:58,200 --> 00:21:56,950
what is the discussion here I don't I

536
00:21:59,549 --> 00:21:58,210
don't actually understand to be honest

537
00:22:02,489 --> 00:21:59,559
but I don't want to spend all of our

538
00:22:03,930 --> 00:22:02,499
time on it I just think that there's a

539
00:22:06,029 --> 00:22:03,940
there's a traumatic perspective when I

540
00:22:08,700 --> 00:22:06,039
hear somebody like you speaking about it

541
00:22:11,399 --> 00:22:08,710
when I feel I don't I don't you know I

542
00:22:12,749 --> 00:22:11,409
didn't want to believe in the fact that

543
00:22:14,609 --> 00:22:12,759
we're forfeiting our future due to

544
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:14,619
climate change believe me you know I

545
00:22:17,340 --> 00:22:16,090
would have been much happier I would

546
00:22:18,539 --> 00:22:17,350
have liked to have written some novels

547
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:18,549
you know I spent nine or ten years

548
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:20,320
working on this book exploring a lot of

549
00:22:23,279 --> 00:22:21,730
subjects that I didn't even know or

550
00:22:25,950 --> 00:22:23,289
understand how to think about very well

551
00:22:28,379 --> 00:22:25,960
at first because I felt called to do it

552
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:28,389
you know having anyway but you know and

553
00:22:32,970 --> 00:22:30,129
what would I hear when I hear your toe

554
00:22:35,669 --> 00:22:32,980
and even your frequency it's it's like

555
00:22:37,919 --> 00:22:35,679
this resistance to just facing something

556
00:22:40,409 --> 00:22:37,929
which is self from my perspective pretty

557
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:40,419
self evidence like you know New York you

558
00:22:44,039 --> 00:22:42,129
never can walk around in late January

559
00:22:46,799 --> 00:22:44,049
and a t-shirt you know until like the

560
00:22:48,090 --> 00:22:46,809
last couple of years you know you know

561
00:22:49,950 --> 00:22:48,100
all around the world there are these

562
00:22:51,930 --> 00:22:49,960
tremendous changes happening you know

563
00:22:53,729 --> 00:22:51,940
these giant ice ice glaciers are

564
00:22:55,619 --> 00:22:53,739
breaking off yeah we're losing the

565
00:22:57,269 --> 00:22:55,629
albedo effect you know they're pretty

566
00:22:59,820 --> 00:22:57,279
clear about all the feedback loops it's

567
00:23:01,859 --> 00:22:59,830
not an infinite system you know and so

568
00:23:02,940 --> 00:23:01,869
you know from my perspective like when I

569
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:02,950
listen to somebody you're talking it's

570
00:23:06,269 --> 00:23:04,690
like it's almost like I feel it's like

571
00:23:08,849 --> 00:23:06,279
the last gasp of a certain type of

572
00:23:11,220 --> 00:23:08,859
individuality you know that wants to not

573
00:23:13,259 --> 00:23:11,230
believe that you know the mainstream

574
00:23:14,729 --> 00:23:13,269
consensus can be right about something

575
00:23:17,129 --> 00:23:14,739
it's the same energy that's gone into

576
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:17,139
kind of you know saying that even though

577
00:23:21,830 --> 00:23:19,570
the mainstream media sometimes up

578
00:23:24,989 --> 00:23:21,840
and sometimes supports you know military

579
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:24,999
CIA stuff and so on that it can never be

580
00:23:29,519 --> 00:23:27,129
right about anything you know it's it's

581
00:23:31,019 --> 00:23:29,529
there's a kind of like I feel it America

582
00:23:33,239 --> 00:23:31,029
right now is a kind of a collective

583
00:23:35,759 --> 00:23:33,249
hysteria it's like a histrionic

584
00:23:38,249 --> 00:23:35,769
undertone that's making us unable to

585
00:23:40,229 --> 00:23:38,259
even agree on very basic things and it

586
00:23:42,149 --> 00:23:40,239
is very frightening to be honest well

587
00:23:45,210 --> 00:23:42,159
you just kind of play a lot of

588
00:23:47,970 --> 00:23:45,220
on the table there I mean I've done 330

589
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:47,980
shows now on skeptic Oh primarily about

590
00:23:54,299 --> 00:23:51,450
consciousness and getting past the crazy

591
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:54,309
materialism we are biological robots in

592
00:24:01,019 --> 00:23:57,210
a meaningless planet that you know is

593
00:24:02,999 --> 00:24:01,029
dominant in science and you talk about

594
00:24:05,950 --> 00:24:03,009
some in the book which we are totally in

595
00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:05,960
sync with and that has led me to look

596
00:24:13,299 --> 00:24:10,480
broadly at spirituality and what role

597
00:24:15,220 --> 00:24:13,309
spirituality plays in consciousness and

598
00:24:16,749 --> 00:24:15,230
what is the interface and what are the

599
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:16,759
extended realms of consciousness and

600
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:18,369
says we understand them through

601
00:24:21,850 --> 00:24:20,450
psychedelics but also through near-death

602
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:21,860
experience and through all these other

603
00:24:27,759 --> 00:24:25,610
means so I don't know what frequency

604
00:24:29,919 --> 00:24:27,769
you're hearing from me or what label

605
00:24:32,139 --> 00:24:29,929
you're hearing from me but you know part

606
00:24:34,149 --> 00:24:32,149
of my investigation has been the

607
00:24:38,070 --> 00:24:34,159
understanding that our understanding

608
00:24:40,210 --> 00:24:38,080
about consciousness our insistence that

609
00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:40,220
consciousness is an illusion which is

610
00:24:44,769 --> 00:24:42,710
just such a crazy crazy idea but it's

611
00:24:48,159 --> 00:24:44,779
still mainstream science is still the

612
00:24:50,919 --> 00:24:48,169
dominant paradigm that that is our sir

613
00:24:54,279 --> 00:24:50,929
what do you mean by delusion well you

614
00:24:57,369 --> 00:24:54,289
know famously Daniel Dennett twenty

615
00:24:59,489 --> 00:24:57,379
years ago wrote that consciousness is an

616
00:25:01,509 --> 00:24:59,499
illusion I mean that was that is

617
00:25:03,399 --> 00:25:01,519
fundamentally the position of the

618
00:25:05,019 --> 00:25:03,409
materialist is that there is no such

619
00:25:07,090 --> 00:25:05,029
thing as consciousness right

620
00:25:09,369 --> 00:25:07,100
that is the epiphenomena of the brain

621
00:25:11,889 --> 00:25:09,379
mind equals brain that is materialism

622
00:25:13,869 --> 00:25:11,899
that is physicalism consciousness is an

623
00:25:17,409 --> 00:25:13,879
illusion right are we on the same page

624
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:17,419
right yeah I see you're saying more of

625
00:25:21,850 --> 00:25:19,970
an I mean it that's what Dennis wrote

626
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:21,860
Dennett wrote consciousness is an

627
00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:22,490
illusion

628
00:25:25,570 --> 00:25:24,110
and if you and if you look it through

629
00:25:28,239 --> 00:25:25,580
through Google as we go over these

630
00:25:30,909 --> 00:25:28,249
things yes yes I thought the phenomena

631
00:25:32,739 --> 00:25:30,919
and you know but yes he said he says an

632
00:25:35,350 --> 00:25:32,749
illusion okay that's that's crazy yeah

633
00:25:37,299 --> 00:25:35,360
it's crazy and it's crazy so no one says

634
00:25:38,950 --> 00:25:37,309
that anymore because it's crazy I just

635
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:38,960
listened the other day you know sam

636
00:25:42,399 --> 00:25:40,850
harris is talking to david chalmers you

637
00:25:42,759 --> 00:25:42,409
know who those two people are right of

638
00:25:45,970 --> 00:25:42,769
course

639
00:25:48,070 --> 00:25:45,980
discussion they're going you know we

640
00:25:49,450 --> 00:25:48,080
know Dan he can't really believe that

641
00:25:51,100 --> 00:25:49,460
does he I mean he said this

642
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:51,110
consciousness is illusion he's his local

643
00:25:56,619 --> 00:25:53,450
guy he's gonna pass away another casket

644
00:25:57,460 --> 00:25:56,629
that changes the paradigm but does he

645
00:25:59,769 --> 00:25:57,470
really mean it

646
00:26:01,930 --> 00:25:59,779
because no one could even these guys

647
00:26:04,470 --> 00:26:01,940
can't even find a way to prop up that

648
00:26:07,210 --> 00:26:04,480
silliness but we still live in that

649
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:07,220
materialist mind equals brain world

650
00:26:11,830 --> 00:26:10,369
right so for me to jump over on the

651
00:26:14,259 --> 00:26:11,840
other side and say we'll wait a minute

652
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:14,269
you know these guys have an incredible

653
00:26:19,660 --> 00:26:17,090
ability to distort the truth

654
00:26:21,670 --> 00:26:19,670
let's I'm open to anyone who

655
00:26:23,860 --> 00:26:21,680
says hey let's look into this a little

656
00:26:25,690 --> 00:26:23,870
bit further let's be slowed down the

657
00:26:28,810 --> 00:26:25,700
idea that it's all settled that we all

658
00:26:30,430 --> 00:26:28,820
know everything you know to now get off

659
00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:30,440
the global warming thing but I just

660
00:26:34,930 --> 00:26:32,720
heard the guy from Greenpeace and I

661
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:34,940
totally get with the former past

662
00:26:38,530 --> 00:26:37,010
president of Greenpeace and I totally

663
00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:38,540
get where he's coming from he said hey

664
00:26:42,430 --> 00:26:40,400
you know what when I started Greenpeace

665
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:42,440
we were worried about all sorts of

666
00:26:46,870 --> 00:26:44,890
environmental issues regarding

667
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:46,880
humanitarian efforts we're particularly

668
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:50,090
concerned about like atomic bombs we got

669
00:26:54,730 --> 00:26:52,850
a hundred atom bombs running around the

670
00:26:56,410 --> 00:26:54,740
world at least a hundred but we don't

671
00:26:58,690 --> 00:26:56,420
know where they are they're lost they're

672
00:27:00,550 --> 00:26:58,700
out there on their own we don't talk

673
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:00,560
about that we don't really talk about

674
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:01,850
you talked a little bit about

675
00:27:06,970 --> 00:27:05,090
destruction of the creatures in the sea

676
00:27:08,530 --> 00:27:06,980
that are we're just depleting that you

677
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:08,540
know we don't talk about that any of

678
00:27:12,970 --> 00:27:10,610
that because what the agenda has been

679
00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:12,980
set it's all about global warming global

680
00:27:17,020 --> 00:27:14,510
warming has happened it's catastrophic

681
00:27:19,180 --> 00:27:17,030
we got to jump in here we got to take

682
00:27:21,850 --> 00:27:19,190
control of this thing God needs our help

683
00:27:23,650 --> 00:27:21,860
on this one I want to put the put the

684
00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:23,660
brakes on that a little bit and make

685
00:27:28,510 --> 00:27:25,310
sure we're we really are looking at the

686
00:27:30,790 --> 00:27:28,520
science yeah I mean you know so I mean I

687
00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:30,800
I did my best to try to understand it

688
00:27:35,470 --> 00:27:33,710
from my limited perspective and you know

689
00:27:38,740 --> 00:27:35,480
I think the planetary boundaries model

690
00:27:40,090 --> 00:27:38,750
is quite a good one and it seems to me

691
00:27:41,830 --> 00:27:40,100
there's very good evidence to think that

692
00:27:43,990 --> 00:27:41,840
climate change global warming is

693
00:27:46,990 --> 00:27:44,000
happening although yes it is happening

694
00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:47,000
you know in you know kind of sometimes

695
00:27:50,590 --> 00:27:48,710
areas get cooler so those areas get

696
00:27:52,540 --> 00:27:50,600
warmer you know it's you know but up at

697
00:27:55,330 --> 00:27:52,550
night but I don't think they're you know

698
00:27:56,740 --> 00:27:55,340
kind of hiding you know we're seeing

699
00:27:59,620 --> 00:27:56,750
we're seeing an increase in temperatures

700
00:28:02,440 --> 00:27:59,630
you know we know the methane is another

701
00:28:04,570 --> 00:28:02,450
issue and you know if we're going to

702
00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:04,580
address you know all these issues you

703
00:28:08,740 --> 00:28:06,110
know not just climate change but the

704
00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:08,750
whole planetary boundaries model it's

705
00:28:13,420 --> 00:28:10,910
going to require human society to to

706
00:28:15,460 --> 00:28:13,430
move in in the new direction okay

707
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:15,470
so let's move off of that for a minute

708
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:17,570
but kind of a related point because I

709
00:28:23,710 --> 00:28:20,650
think it really is at the crux of what

710
00:28:26,380 --> 00:28:23,720
gets at people when they get past the

711
00:28:30,970 --> 00:28:26,390
the hysteria of the science because the

712
00:28:32,950 --> 00:28:30,980
science is is distorted and you

713
00:28:33,370 --> 00:28:32,960
understand and acknowledge that it's

714
00:28:35,380 --> 00:28:33,380
just

715
00:28:36,850 --> 00:28:35,390
by certain groups who are pushing it in

716
00:28:39,340 --> 00:28:36,860
the direction away from the direction

717
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:39,350
you want to go I can see some groups who

718
00:28:42,370 --> 00:28:40,610
are distorting it in the other way so I

719
00:28:44,169 --> 00:28:42,380
can point at Climategate and this most

720
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:44,179
recent thing and all that stuff so we

721
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:47,360
could forget all that go ahead go ahead

722
00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:49,970
no it just seems to be like a very blown

723
00:28:56,590 --> 00:28:54,320
out of proportion thing you know it's

724
00:28:58,210 --> 00:28:56,600
hugely by the proportion and if for me

725
00:28:59,200 --> 00:28:58,220
it's even like the way I mean it's it's

726
00:29:01,690 --> 00:28:59,210
also part of this right-wing

727
00:29:03,580 --> 00:29:01,700
disinformation machine where they find

728
00:29:05,110 --> 00:29:03,590
these things and they you know kind of

729
00:29:07,539 --> 00:29:05,120
make this Watergate reference so you

730
00:29:09,340 --> 00:29:07,549
have Pizza gank and Climategate but for

731
00:29:11,950 --> 00:29:09,350
me that's at this point a sign that

732
00:29:15,310 --> 00:29:11,960
there are powerful right-wing forces aka

733
00:29:17,860 --> 00:29:15,320
Koch brothers etc who are kind of

734
00:29:19,750 --> 00:29:17,870
deviously plotting you know ways to kind

735
00:29:21,850 --> 00:29:19,760
of create these kind of obstructions and

736
00:29:24,010 --> 00:29:21,860
and and and misdirections

737
00:29:27,310 --> 00:29:24,020
you know so that we don't have a unified

738
00:29:28,899 --> 00:29:27,320
front around dealing with it with a

739
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:28,909
situation that threatens all life on

740
00:29:30,899 --> 00:29:29,450
Earth

741
00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:30,909
I mean if you go back to Rex Tillerson

742
00:29:35,350 --> 00:29:33,679
you know what his perspective on climate

743
00:29:37,060 --> 00:29:35,360
change is yeah it's really happening he

744
00:29:38,770 --> 00:29:37,070
knows what's happening but he says that

745
00:29:39,610 --> 00:29:38,780
humans just adapt they adapt to new

746
00:29:41,260 --> 00:29:39,620
situations

747
00:29:43,060 --> 00:29:41,270
well it's awesome to adapt to a new

748
00:29:45,220 --> 00:29:43,070
situation when you're worth 300 million

749
00:29:47,140 --> 00:29:45,230
dollars and probably have houses you

750
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:47,150
know in various mountaintops it's not so

751
00:29:50,919 --> 00:29:49,250
easy to adapt to a new situation like

752
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:50,929
like like sea-level rise when you live

753
00:29:55,419 --> 00:29:53,330
in Bangladesh it's 0 to 5 meters above

754
00:29:57,310 --> 00:29:55,429
sea level and and you're gonna lose your

755
00:29:59,649 --> 00:29:57,320
ability to farm and and India is

756
00:30:02,470 --> 00:29:59,659
building a wall to keep you out you know

757
00:30:05,950 --> 00:30:02,480
so essentially our negligence around

758
00:30:07,090 --> 00:30:05,960
dealing with you know our you know co2

759
00:30:10,539 --> 00:30:07,100
emissions

760
00:30:13,690 --> 00:30:10,549
you know it is a genocide of policy

761
00:30:16,659 --> 00:30:13,700
against a huge swath of the developing

762
00:30:18,399 --> 00:30:16,669
world you know it's it's it's it's you

763
00:30:20,649 --> 00:30:18,409
know very serious stuff man I don't know

764
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:20,659
what else to tell you yeah I got a I

765
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:22,010
gotta pull some of that apart

766
00:30:27,669 --> 00:30:25,330
Climategate is a right-wing conspiracy

767
00:30:29,950 --> 00:30:27,679
overblown tell me there tell me what you

768
00:30:33,070 --> 00:30:29,960
understand about Climategate in 2009

769
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:33,080
that an insider feels like science is

770
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:35,600
being hijacked and releases all these

771
00:30:40,659 --> 00:30:38,330
emails what what is a right-wing

772
00:30:42,370 --> 00:30:40,669
conspiracy about that what is overblown

773
00:30:45,180 --> 00:30:42,380
about that a lot of people think it's

774
00:30:46,990 --> 00:30:45,190
the moat the greatest public display of

775
00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:47,000
science scandals

776
00:30:51,130 --> 00:30:49,760
science misinformation in history these

777
00:30:54,250 --> 00:30:51,140
guys are saying don't send this person

778
00:30:56,650 --> 00:30:54,260
the data hide the data this way I mean

779
00:30:59,410 --> 00:30:56,660
what is what it I don't understand what

780
00:31:01,450 --> 00:30:59,420
your pushback is on Climategate well

781
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:01,460
from what I read and I obviously haven't

782
00:31:04,570 --> 00:31:02,930
studied it as much as you have so I'm

783
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:04,580
not going to go toe to toe with you on

784
00:31:10,630 --> 00:31:07,490
it it is that they seem kind of like

785
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:10,640
minor email sorry like you know like you

786
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:13,370
know I mean and once again we we I have

787
00:31:17,710 --> 00:31:15,650
to go back into it I don't I don't I'm

788
00:31:19,210 --> 00:31:17,720
not going to go there I mean you know I

789
00:31:21,610 --> 00:31:19,220
just go back to what I said at the

790
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:21,620
beginning you know however things are

791
00:31:26,740 --> 00:31:23,690
being you know yes people have political

792
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:26,750
ends and they doctor things in certain

793
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:30,290
directions you know - for those ends but

794
00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:31,610
you know we're putting like you go

795
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:35,510
around the world cars factories co2 - 75

796
00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:37,250
parts per million millions stable

797
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:39,710
climate 400 parts per million guaranteed

798
00:31:44,380 --> 00:31:41,810
four degrees Celsius warmer quiet

799
00:31:46,870 --> 00:31:44,390
hundred-foot sea level rise at some

800
00:31:49,540 --> 00:31:46,880
point not incremental methane under the

801
00:31:51,790 --> 00:31:49,550
ocean cause Permian mass extinction was

802
00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:51,800
a 250 million years ago or something you

803
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:53,360
know 95 percent of all life on Earth

804
00:31:58,180 --> 00:31:55,850
including all large mammals went extinct

805
00:31:59,710 --> 00:31:58,190
at that time you know I don't think it's

806
00:32:00,970 --> 00:31:59,720
brain surgery at this point I'm sorry

807
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:00,980
but let's try to get on to something

808
00:32:03,490 --> 00:32:01,250
else

809
00:32:04,990 --> 00:32:03,500
okay well try and get on to something

810
00:32:06,250 --> 00:32:05,000
else I could respond to all that but I'm

811
00:32:07,870 --> 00:32:06,260
not gonna because I don't want to waste

812
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:07,880
your time and I want to try and get some

813
00:32:12,430 --> 00:32:10,370
of this out there because the issue

814
00:32:14,740 --> 00:32:12,440
behind this for a lot of people and

815
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:14,750
you've put this on the table already so

816
00:32:18,910 --> 00:32:16,610
we got to kind of hammer out this

817
00:32:20,860 --> 00:32:18,920
right-wing thing because you keep out

818
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:20,870
right and all this stuff and that's not

819
00:32:25,270 --> 00:32:23,690
me I am so post partisan that it's you

820
00:32:28,180 --> 00:32:25,280
know it's crazy I believe the whole

821
00:32:29,740 --> 00:32:28,190
thing is just crazy I voted for Hillary

822
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:29,750
that's before I knew about the whole

823
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:31,130
pizza gate thing if I did I wouldn't

824
00:32:34,090 --> 00:32:32,810
never voted for Hillary but I don't

825
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:34,100
think you believe in pizza gate either

826
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:36,170
so we won't go there but I am

827
00:32:40,300 --> 00:32:37,250
post-partisan

828
00:32:41,980 --> 00:32:40,310
I I don't care I don't care because I

829
00:32:46,690 --> 00:32:41,990
don't believe that they can make a

830
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:46,700
difference but from the issue of do we

831
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:52,370
want to ride this globalist train that

832
00:32:59,310 --> 00:32:55,130
has been going for the last twenty years

833
00:33:01,770 --> 00:32:59,320
or do we want to pull back and create a

834
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:01,780
more of a nationalistic kind of

835
00:33:06,660 --> 00:33:03,610
perspective you seem to have a very

836
00:33:08,490 --> 00:33:06,670
strong opinion on that the country in

837
00:33:11,340 --> 00:33:08,500
the u.s. seems to have turned and said

838
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:11,350
we really don't want to go down the

839
00:33:16,290 --> 00:33:13,690
globalist thing as much we'd rather go

840
00:33:17,010 --> 00:33:16,300
down the nationalist path what are your

841
00:33:20,850 --> 00:33:17,020
thoughts about that

842
00:33:24,450 --> 00:33:20,860
well I mean I think it's very short-term

843
00:33:27,300 --> 00:33:24,460
thinking I mean I'm not you know for the

844
00:33:30,660 --> 00:33:27,310
New World Order neoliberal you know

845
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:30,670
globalization of Obama and Clinton you

846
00:33:36,690 --> 00:33:34,570
know partly because you know largely

847
00:33:40,410 --> 00:33:36,700
because III felt that in terms of the

848
00:33:43,230 --> 00:33:40,420
ecological crisis they weren't you know

849
00:33:45,210 --> 00:33:43,240
doing what needed to be done and also in

850
00:33:46,380 --> 00:33:45,220
terms of things like economic inequality

851
00:33:48,210 --> 00:33:46,390
you know it was just getting worse and

852
00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:48,220
worse and so on you know I definitely

853
00:33:54,210 --> 00:33:52,480
feel that in a sense like the you know

854
00:33:55,830 --> 00:33:54,220
the the financial elites and the

855
00:33:58,890 --> 00:33:55,840
cultural elites abandoned in the middle

856
00:34:02,190 --> 00:33:58,900
of the country to be kind of information

857
00:34:03,540 --> 00:34:02,200
deserts as well as food deserts and you

858
00:34:04,830 --> 00:34:03,550
know I was concerned about this years

859
00:34:06,180 --> 00:34:04,840
ago when I started a bomber we've

860
00:34:09,270 --> 00:34:06,190
created something called the Obama or

861
00:34:11,340 --> 00:34:09,280
Network we were trying to build a kind

862
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:11,350
of social movement of local groups local

863
00:34:16,770 --> 00:34:14,290
community groups in the US and abroad to

864
00:34:19,290 --> 00:34:16,780
kind of you know spread different ideas

865
00:34:21,530 --> 00:34:19,300
for informational culture ideas you know

866
00:34:25,110 --> 00:34:21,540
permaculture alternative currencies

867
00:34:29,460 --> 00:34:25,120
participatory decentralized democratic

868
00:34:32,930 --> 00:34:29,470
systems shamanism you know kind of a

869
00:34:35,190 --> 00:34:32,940
different approach to nature and so on

870
00:34:37,260 --> 00:34:35,200
you know I felt I felt that was more of

871
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:37,270
a better direction you know III think

872
00:34:42,150 --> 00:34:39,970
that in the future you know the the the

873
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:42,160
the national boundaries are ultimately

874
00:34:47,100 --> 00:34:46,210
in a matter less particularly as a lot

875
00:34:49,890 --> 00:34:47,110
of the effects that are already

876
00:34:52,710 --> 00:34:49,900
irreversible of the ecological crisis

877
00:34:54,870 --> 00:34:52,720
get worse such as sea level rise and so

878
00:34:56,610 --> 00:34:54,880
on and ultimately we're going to shift

879
00:34:59,610 --> 00:34:56,620
or such as you know circumstance that's

880
00:35:01,980 --> 00:34:59,620
more you know local than bioregional and

881
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:01,990
then planetary as our framework and I

882
00:35:05,580 --> 00:35:03,610
think the way to do that is to use the

883
00:35:08,340 --> 00:35:05,590
Internet to start to create

884
00:35:10,410 --> 00:35:08,350
participatory Democratic systems so that

885
00:35:11,420 --> 00:35:10,420
people can be fully engaged rather than

886
00:35:13,490 --> 00:35:11,430
just having

887
00:35:15,349 --> 00:35:13,500
you know a stupid vote we have to vote

888
00:35:18,589 --> 00:35:15,359
for one of two pathetic idiotic

889
00:35:20,089 --> 00:35:18,599
candidates every four years you know

890
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:20,099
there should be a way through the

891
00:35:24,109 --> 00:35:22,290
instantaneous communications medium of

892
00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:24,119
the internet that people can be actively

893
00:35:28,910 --> 00:35:26,910
engaged an ongoing process and in fact

894
00:35:31,490 --> 00:35:28,920
if you look at the history of political

895
00:35:33,500 --> 00:35:31,500
economic systems they're tightly linked

896
00:35:35,420 --> 00:35:33,510
to the evolution of media you know she

897
00:35:37,730 --> 00:35:35,430
would never have had an empire unless

898
00:35:39,710 --> 00:35:37,740
you had a written code of laws you would

899
00:35:41,930 --> 00:35:39,720
never have the modern liberal in a

900
00:35:44,180 --> 00:35:41,940
democratic nation state until you had a

901
00:35:46,250 --> 00:35:44,190
printing press so I feel that the

902
00:35:49,010 --> 00:35:46,260
internet points towards a new way that

903
00:35:50,900 --> 00:35:49,020
human society could orchestrate itself

904
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:50,910
that would be much more participatory

905
00:35:56,030 --> 00:35:53,510
much more based on direct democracy

906
00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:56,040
sounds good but what if people don't

907
00:35:59,990 --> 00:35:57,930
want to go along one of the problems

908
00:36:04,130 --> 00:36:00,000
we're facing right now this moment in

909
00:36:06,950 --> 00:36:04,140
the u.s. is there's this huge dissension

910
00:36:09,140 --> 00:36:06,960
and there's this huge kind of rising up

911
00:36:11,359 --> 00:36:09,150
of saying you know what participatory

912
00:36:13,730 --> 00:36:11,369
government is great but when it doesn't

913
00:36:15,740 --> 00:36:13,740
go my way you know I got to find a

914
00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:15,750
different path which i think is great in

915
00:36:21,740 --> 00:36:19,200
one sense but in another sense how do we

916
00:36:24,620 --> 00:36:21,750
as a country United States Bill of

917
00:36:28,099 --> 00:36:24,630
Rights you know we lost our fourth

918
00:36:30,470 --> 00:36:28,109
amendment during Obama we lost our

919
00:36:32,420 --> 00:36:30,480
fourth amendment unlawful search and

920
00:36:34,370 --> 00:36:32,430
seizure that you know back in the 60s

921
00:36:38,359 --> 00:36:34,380
was paramount I mean everyone fought for

922
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:38,369
well Bush killed it and then Obama just

923
00:36:43,250 --> 00:36:40,530
further drove it into the ground so

924
00:36:45,289 --> 00:36:43,260
it'll never rise up again this is the

925
00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:45,299
pushback I think is the sense of the

926
00:36:48,890 --> 00:36:47,250
nation is you know what individual

927
00:36:51,020 --> 00:36:48,900
rights if I don't protect my individual

928
00:36:53,299 --> 00:36:51,030
rights they will be taken away by the

929
00:36:56,059 --> 00:36:53,309
state and right now that's the most

930
00:36:59,059 --> 00:36:56,069
important thing to me so they hear I

931
00:37:02,630 --> 00:36:59,069
think in what you're saying is wait a

932
00:37:05,390 --> 00:37:02,640
minute this is another rewarming up of

933
00:37:08,270 --> 00:37:05,400
the globalist agenda that says we have

934
00:37:11,210 --> 00:37:08,280
to give away all our rights so that the

935
00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:11,220
state so that some state entity can

936
00:37:15,620 --> 00:37:13,920
protect us whether it's terrorism or

937
00:37:17,839 --> 00:37:15,630
whether it's in this case

938
00:37:19,910 --> 00:37:17,849
environmentalism Alex did you read my

939
00:37:21,260 --> 00:37:19,920
book that has nothing to do with

940
00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:21,270
anything that I discussed or write about

941
00:37:24,500 --> 00:37:22,250
in the book

942
00:37:26,690 --> 00:37:24,510
how can you say that I think it has a

943
00:37:29,089 --> 00:37:26,700
lot to do I said I don't even really I

944
00:37:31,730 --> 00:37:29,099
think that these these nation-states are

945
00:37:33,710 --> 00:37:31,740
part of the problem you know and you

946
00:37:35,690 --> 00:37:33,720
know yeah I mean it's it's when you're

947
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:35,700
describing it's like you know I feel

948
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:37,410
that it would be better and maybe more

949
00:37:42,829 --> 00:37:40,410
useful if somehow I was able to like

950
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:42,839
maybe go over the basic gist of the

951
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:44,640
message of the book why not why don't

952
00:37:48,170 --> 00:37:46,650
you do that Daniel but let me just let

953
00:37:49,430 --> 00:37:48,180
me just tell you a little bit about

954
00:37:51,140 --> 00:37:49,440
where I was heading and then I'll then

955
00:37:53,089 --> 00:37:51,150
I'll let you let you do that is that

956
00:37:55,009 --> 00:37:53,099
then I think is the point of the book

957
00:37:58,849 --> 00:37:55,019
the point of the book are all these

958
00:38:00,440 --> 00:37:58,859
ideas about how we need to change why

959
00:38:03,019 --> 00:38:00,450
we're gonna change why it's the only way

960
00:38:05,809 --> 00:38:03,029
and all this and I think to try and

961
00:38:08,779 --> 00:38:05,819
bring it into perspective of what's

962
00:38:11,089 --> 00:38:08,789
going on today it's that's what's really

963
00:38:14,180 --> 00:38:11,099
at the core issue is globalization

964
00:38:16,130 --> 00:38:14,190
versus nationalism so but please tell me

965
00:38:17,660 --> 00:38:16,140
what I'm what I'm missing there I start

966
00:38:20,150 --> 00:38:17,670
I see it as globalization and

967
00:38:21,620 --> 00:38:20,160
nationalization nationalism versus

968
00:38:23,870 --> 00:38:21,630
something else that I would that doesn't

969
00:38:25,279 --> 00:38:23,880
you know it's a it's still an idea but I

970
00:38:26,839 --> 00:38:25,289
would call it something more like planet

971
00:38:29,150 --> 00:38:26,849
ization you know from the from the

972
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:29,160
cultural philosopher William Irwin

973
00:38:36,319 --> 00:38:31,890
Thompson you know we need to get out of

974
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:36,329
these broken obstructed old identity

975
00:38:42,650 --> 00:38:39,450
forums and recognize that ultimately you

976
00:38:45,259 --> 00:38:42,660
know each of us is a catalytic agent of

977
00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:45,269
a whole ecosystem and at the moment

978
00:38:50,210 --> 00:38:47,250
we're causing cascading destructive

979
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:50,220
effects that will lead to our future

980
00:38:55,099 --> 00:38:53,130
destruction you know I mean it's it's

981
00:38:57,140 --> 00:38:55,109
it's no it's not that it's not that you

982
00:38:59,749 --> 00:38:57,150
know it's it's pretty obvious that

983
00:39:01,789 --> 00:38:59,759
that's what's happening you know so then

984
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:01,799
we need to step back but when you say

985
00:39:05,329 --> 00:39:03,450
okay like we don't want to you know we

986
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:05,339
want humanity to thrive if you know so

987
00:39:09,079 --> 00:39:07,410
what does that take you know well we

988
00:39:11,599 --> 00:39:09,089
can't keep consuming the kind of way

989
00:39:13,549 --> 00:39:11,609
we're consuming you know so we gotta do

990
00:39:16,309 --> 00:39:13,559
something different now if you look at

991
00:39:19,700 --> 00:39:16,319
past epochs there are times when people

992
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:19,710
came together you know for some greater

993
00:39:23,900 --> 00:39:21,690
cause or greater initiative and often

994
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:23,910
it's remembered even as something

995
00:39:26,990 --> 00:39:25,650
incredible later on you know whether

996
00:39:29,779 --> 00:39:27,000
there was an England during World War

997
00:39:30,220 --> 00:39:29,789
two or something you know or even the

998
00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:30,230
way

999
00:39:34,690 --> 00:39:31,730
and there's also times when we've been

1000
00:39:37,359 --> 00:39:34,700
able to mobilize even complex societies

1001
00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:37,369
to make a rapid change in direction so

1002
00:39:42,130 --> 00:39:40,250
for instance the US during World War two

1003
00:39:43,870 --> 00:39:42,140
you know after Pearl Harbor we were able

1004
00:39:46,030 --> 00:39:43,880
to redirect our entire factory

1005
00:39:48,970 --> 00:39:46,040
production in three months towards

1006
00:39:51,849 --> 00:39:48,980
wartime production and we put a tax on

1007
00:39:55,300 --> 00:39:51,859
the wealthy of as much as 94% you know

1008
00:39:57,670 --> 00:39:55,310
to have the resources to you know defeat

1009
00:40:00,670 --> 00:39:57,680
the Nazis and and not not be taken over

1010
00:40:02,589 --> 00:40:00,680
by them in a sense so so you know we're

1011
00:40:03,849 --> 00:40:02,599
actually when you really from my

1012
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:03,859
perspective and I know you seem to

1013
00:40:08,170 --> 00:40:05,690
reject some of the data if you look at

1014
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:08,180
the ecological circumstance you know we

1015
00:40:11,829 --> 00:40:10,310
need that type of unification we need to

1016
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:11,839
we need to come together as one human

1017
00:40:17,980 --> 00:40:15,410
family and forget about you know you

1018
00:40:20,020 --> 00:40:17,990
know going 5% more renewable in 50 years

1019
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:20,030
let's go 100 percent renewable in 10

1020
00:40:23,530 --> 00:40:21,650
years you know most people are sitting

1021
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:23,540
around doing jobs that have no

1022
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:25,250
relationship to the ecology of the earth

1023
00:40:28,599 --> 00:40:27,170
they're just you know they're they're

1024
00:40:30,490 --> 00:40:28,609
doing things that are just net negative

1025
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:30,500
you know we you know we could be

1026
00:40:34,870 --> 00:40:32,930
providing people with a basic income you

1027
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:34,880
know so and and and subsidizing people

1028
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:36,770
retraining them so they can live in home

1029
00:40:41,170 --> 00:40:39,050
communities you know I'm a great

1030
00:40:43,540 --> 00:40:41,180
believer in individuality and individual

1031
00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:43,550
rights and so on as long as those rights

1032
00:40:50,260 --> 00:40:46,250
don't involve the right to control other

1033
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:50,270
people's lives or you know you know in

1034
00:40:54,010 --> 00:40:51,770
all the different ways that this right

1035
00:40:55,690 --> 00:40:54,020
movement is trying to do it you know so

1036
00:40:58,390 --> 00:40:55,700
let's let's protect people's rights and

1037
00:40:59,950 --> 00:40:58,400
freedoms but let's repurpose you in

1038
00:41:02,620 --> 00:40:59,960
society so that we can live on this

1039
00:41:03,819 --> 00:41:02,630
planet harmonically so there's a lot to

1040
00:41:06,430 --> 00:41:03,829
pull apart there but I want to make sure

1041
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:06,440
that you have a chance to is there

1042
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:07,450
anything else about the book

1043
00:41:11,740 --> 00:41:10,490
particularly that relates to what you're

1044
00:41:13,690 --> 00:41:11,750
just talking about because I don't want

1045
00:41:16,300 --> 00:41:13,700
to talk over that have to actually ask

1046
00:41:18,010 --> 00:41:16,310
me questions about like you know you

1047
00:41:20,170 --> 00:41:18,020
know the ideas in the book I mean I look

1048
00:41:21,940 --> 00:41:20,180
at for instance the monetary system you

1049
00:41:23,770 --> 00:41:21,950
know like for instance money now you

1050
00:41:26,380 --> 00:41:23,780
know is an instrument that's based on

1051
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:26,390
debt that's forcing excess consumption

1052
00:41:33,220 --> 00:41:30,050
and and and makes people you know live

1053
00:41:34,990 --> 00:41:33,230
in fear you know it's it's an instrument

1054
00:41:37,660 --> 00:41:35,000
for a certain type it's it's you know

1055
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:37,670
the tools that our tools shape us our

1056
00:41:41,829 --> 00:41:39,410
shape our consciousness and our values

1057
00:41:43,020 --> 00:41:41,839
you know so for instance you know all

1058
00:41:45,060 --> 00:41:43,030
around the world now

1059
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:45,070
you know debt is rising like seven

1060
00:41:49,290 --> 00:41:47,770
percent per year you know based on

1061
00:41:51,450 --> 00:41:49,300
compounded interest and so on whereas

1062
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:51,460
GDP which is a terrible measure in any

1063
00:41:55,710 --> 00:41:53,890
case is only is only rising about two

1064
00:41:57,270 --> 00:41:55,720
percent per year you know so basically

1065
00:42:00,450 --> 00:41:57,280
people are forced to like work harder

1066
00:42:01,980 --> 00:42:00,460
and harder for less and less you know in

1067
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:01,990
a system that's destroying the planet

1068
00:42:07,620 --> 00:42:04,210
and not bringing much happiness Oh

1069
00:42:09,630 --> 00:42:07,630
Daniel that's a hard one I mean when

1070
00:42:12,210 --> 00:42:09,640
people talk about debt and they talk

1071
00:42:14,730 --> 00:42:12,220
about money I'm sorry what what sorry

1072
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:14,740
about that is that what is the

1073
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:16,690
alternative there's a time value of

1074
00:42:21,690 --> 00:42:17,410
money

1075
00:42:23,850 --> 00:42:21,700
think the Federal Reserve is a complete

1076
00:42:25,230 --> 00:42:23,860
sham right I mean most people don't even

1077
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:25,240
know that the Federal Reserve isn't a

1078
00:42:29,460 --> 00:42:27,610
federal agency but no it's banksters

1079
00:42:32,190 --> 00:42:29,470
that have kind of taken over and are

1080
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:32,200
running this scheme on us but at the end

1081
00:42:36,390 --> 00:42:33,850
of the day when I hear people like you

1082
00:42:38,460 --> 00:42:36,400
say this stuff it's like removed from

1083
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:38,470
the reality that there's a time value of

1084
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:40,450
money so first of all first so I don't

1085
00:42:44,070 --> 00:42:42,610
know what I mean by people like me I'm

1086
00:42:46,890 --> 00:42:44,080
talking to you as if you you said people

1087
00:42:51,510 --> 00:42:46,900
like me about 50 times in this in this

1088
00:42:54,570 --> 00:42:51,520
interview anyway secondly secondly you

1089
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:54,580
know the point is that their buddy is an

1090
00:42:58,320 --> 00:42:56,530
instrument it's a design that humans

1091
00:43:00,960 --> 00:42:58,330
design something that functions in a

1092
00:43:02,340 --> 00:43:00,970
certain way it's it's you know and I

1093
00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:02,350
wrote about this in the book it's you

1094
00:43:05,100 --> 00:43:03,250
know you could look at somebody like

1095
00:43:06,870 --> 00:43:05,110
Bernard Lee ATAR who's one of the

1096
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:06,880
architects of the Euro who's been

1097
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:08,650
seeking to create other designs for

1098
00:43:13,110 --> 00:43:11,170
instruments for exchanging value that

1099
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:13,120
don't have the same inherent problem so

1100
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:14,890
for instance you can have a trading

1101
00:43:19,290 --> 00:43:17,290
currency that has a negative interest or

1102
00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:19,300
Debra's charge so people are actually

1103
00:43:23,070 --> 00:43:21,250
penalized for porting it so rather than

1104
00:43:25,470 --> 00:43:23,080
trying to hoard it you know people then

1105
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:25,480
just keep it in circulation and that has

1106
00:43:29,700 --> 00:43:27,610
a great you know kind of corollary when

1107
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:29,710
you think about how energy moves through

1108
00:43:34,530 --> 00:43:32,170
a body you know if you look think about

1109
00:43:36,390 --> 00:43:34,540
humanity it's like a collective body you

1110
00:43:38,370 --> 00:43:36,400
know we don't store energy like you know

1111
00:43:41,130 --> 00:43:38,380
cells don't hoard energy and keep other

1112
00:43:43,140 --> 00:43:41,140
cells starving you know energy moves you

1113
00:43:44,550 --> 00:43:43,150
know where it's needed you know so some

1114
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:44,560
money should ultimately be a tool or

1115
00:43:48,900 --> 00:43:46,810
however we exchange value should should

1116
00:43:51,540 --> 00:43:48,910
be a way to get energy where it's needed

1117
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:51,550
not not to allow it to to complete

1118
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:52,530
before

1119
00:43:56,839 --> 00:43:55,290
you know but by a bunch by my 50 billion

1120
00:43:58,339 --> 00:43:56,849
errors you control more wealth in like

1121
00:44:01,099 --> 00:43:58,349
two-thirds of the population it's

1122
00:44:03,319 --> 00:44:01,109
ridiculous right what I was trying to

1123
00:44:06,140 --> 00:44:03,329
get at before was all these things

1124
00:44:08,660 --> 00:44:06,150
require I assume because you said you're

1125
00:44:11,060 --> 00:44:08,670
into individual rights and protecting

1126
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:11,070
the rights of individuals they require

1127
00:44:15,740 --> 00:44:13,530
some sort of consensus some sort of

1128
00:44:18,319 --> 00:44:15,750
representative government it just

1129
00:44:20,450 --> 00:44:18,329
doesn't seem like people are interested

1130
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:20,460
in going down any of these paths that

1131
00:44:23,650 --> 00:44:22,410
you're talking about in a large number

1132
00:44:25,970 --> 00:44:23,660
and that's what I was alluding to

1133
00:44:27,319 --> 00:44:25,980
disagree with you they haven't been

1134
00:44:29,990 --> 00:44:27,329
presented with the option

1135
00:44:31,819 --> 00:44:30,000
the media has a hold on their minds

1136
00:44:34,130 --> 00:44:31,829
their consciousness is controlled and

1137
00:44:35,420 --> 00:44:34,140
programmed by a tiny elites they haven't

1138
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:35,430
been given an option for a truly

1139
00:44:39,109 --> 00:44:37,290
equitable truly decent way of

1140
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:39,119
approaching this circumstance they

1141
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:41,130
haven't been given tools for participant

1142
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:42,930
or democracy they haven't been given a

1143
00:44:46,130 --> 00:44:44,250
free internet so they can learn about

1144
00:44:48,710 --> 00:44:46,140
what's happening their minds are

1145
00:44:52,849 --> 00:44:48,720
controlled by a small group of

1146
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:52,859
well you know earlier around

1147
00:44:55,970 --> 00:44:54,450
your you were kind of defending the

1148
00:44:57,500 --> 00:44:55,980
mainstream media saying hey they don't

1149
00:45:00,589 --> 00:44:57,510
get everything wrong certainly they

1150
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:00,599
don't get everything wrong Justin see in

1151
00:45:05,930 --> 00:45:03,450
my perspective it's highly coherent he's

1152
00:45:07,609 --> 00:45:05,940
developing it I feel that you're not

1153
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:07,619
like I don't know we maybe we need to

1154
00:45:11,170 --> 00:45:09,930
spend six hours hanging this out I don't

1155
00:45:14,900 --> 00:45:11,180
think it's gonna happen in one podcast

1156
00:45:16,730 --> 00:45:14,910
you know you know it's a highly coherent

1157
00:45:19,069 --> 00:45:16,740
and it's systemic you know we have a

1158
00:45:21,230 --> 00:45:19,079
systemic illness going on you know

1159
00:45:23,540 --> 00:45:21,240
people are lost people are confused

1160
00:45:25,839 --> 00:45:23,550
people are scared you know the whole

1161
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:25,849
system is designed to make them that way

1162
00:45:29,780 --> 00:45:28,290
you know we can put this thing back into

1163
00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:29,790
balance but first we have to have the

1164
00:45:33,470 --> 00:45:31,680
imagination that it's possible and

1165
00:45:35,089 --> 00:45:33,480
that's what great thinkers like Oscar

1166
00:45:37,430 --> 00:45:35,099
Wilde and Buckminster Fuller and Hannah

1167
00:45:39,260 --> 00:45:37,440
Aaron help us to have that imagination

1168
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:39,270
you know so we have to realize that it

1169
00:45:42,770 --> 00:45:41,010
doesn't have to be this way that we

1170
00:45:45,050 --> 00:45:42,780
could actually create a harmonic system

1171
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:45,060
that works in resonance in harmony with

1172
00:45:48,950 --> 00:45:46,290
the ecology of the earth as a whole

1173
00:45:50,270 --> 00:45:48,960
system we couldn't do that okay just in

1174
00:45:51,859 --> 00:45:50,280
the same way we figured out how to fly

1175
00:45:53,630 --> 00:45:51,869
just in the same way you figure out how

1176
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:53,640
to make smart phones and extract all

1177
00:45:57,500 --> 00:45:55,290
these rare minerals and fossil fuels

1178
00:45:59,390 --> 00:45:57,510
from the environment we could now turn

1179
00:46:01,400 --> 00:45:59,400
our attention to how do we make this

1180
00:46:03,740 --> 00:46:01,410
thing work for all human beings

1181
00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:03,750
for the entire human family we have the

1182
00:46:07,190 --> 00:46:05,250
technical capacity to do that it's

1183
00:46:09,710 --> 00:46:07,200
buckminster fuller's said it's a design

1184
00:46:13,460 --> 00:46:09,720
problem and it's an imagination problem

1185
00:46:16,130 --> 00:46:13,470
okay I think it's okay to disagree so I

1186
00:46:19,610 --> 00:46:16,140
mean I don't have a problem that you

1187
00:46:21,620 --> 00:46:19,620
don't see my ideas as coherent or even

1188
00:46:23,690 --> 00:46:21,630
sensible or anything like that or that I

1189
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:23,700
don't see yours as coherent I mean

1190
00:46:27,110 --> 00:46:25,290
that's really not the issue that's then

1191
00:46:28,910 --> 00:46:27,120
gonna meet you at the same level of

1192
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:28,920
force that you're meeting me because

1193
00:46:32,330 --> 00:46:30,330
otherwise they feel that you know it's

1194
00:46:33,980 --> 00:46:32,340
just like I'm you know okay I'm not even

1195
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:33,990
getting a listening hear I'm sorry

1196
00:46:38,930 --> 00:46:37,170
you know okay that's why I paused before

1197
00:46:41,150 --> 00:46:38,940
to make sure that you had a chance to

1198
00:46:43,370 --> 00:46:41,160
talk so let me kind of respond to what

1199
00:46:45,620 --> 00:46:43,380
you're saying in really a new way okay

1200
00:46:47,060 --> 00:46:45,630
that I think relates to your book in an

1201
00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:47,070
important way in the way that is

1202
00:46:52,850 --> 00:46:50,250
synergistic with my approach because you

1203
00:46:54,020 --> 00:46:52,860
know is it possible that the material

1204
00:46:57,110 --> 00:46:54,030
world that we're talking about right

1205
00:46:58,790 --> 00:46:57,120
because there's this spiritual extended

1206
00:47:01,250 --> 00:46:58,800
consciousness world that we're talking

1207
00:47:03,710 --> 00:47:01,260
about early on that may exist and may

1208
00:47:07,850 --> 00:47:03,720
have a totally different set of rules

1209
00:47:09,590 --> 00:47:07,860
than this material and justifies the

1210
00:47:11,660 --> 00:47:09,600
means we have to do this or do that

1211
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:11,670
those two worlds could be different in

1212
00:47:14,270 --> 00:47:12,930
some important ways that we don't

1213
00:47:17,420 --> 00:47:14,280
realize I'm just throwing that up as a

1214
00:47:18,890 --> 00:47:17,430
possibility so isn't it possible that

1215
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:18,900
it's true what a lot of spiritual

1216
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:21,570
teachers tell us is that in some way we

1217
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:24,210
don't quite understand the world is

1218
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:27,210
always perfect just the way that it is

1219
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:29,850
and you know I was thinking the other

1220
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:31,290
day when I was preparing for this

1221
00:47:35,930 --> 00:47:33,570
interview I was talking to my friend

1222
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:35,940
Rick Archer who does this show but at

1223
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:38,330
the gas pump and he introduced me to

1224
00:47:43,610 --> 00:47:40,970
Amma do you know Amma the hugging Saint

1225
00:47:44,210 --> 00:47:43,620
absolutely I've gotten three hugs okay

1226
00:47:50,420 --> 00:47:44,220
great

1227
00:47:51,860 --> 00:47:50,430
matter what but by the way Alex the idea

1228
00:47:53,810 --> 00:47:51,870
that the world is already perfect is

1229
00:47:56,090 --> 00:47:53,820
actually an idea that's totally in my

1230
00:47:57,890 --> 00:47:56,100
book I talk about the idea of samsara

1231
00:48:00,650 --> 00:47:57,900
and Nirvana ultimately being the same

1232
00:48:02,210 --> 00:48:00,660
thing and I talk about how certain

1233
00:48:05,090 --> 00:48:02,220
psychedelic experiences particularly

1234
00:48:07,130 --> 00:48:05,100
five mao dimethyltryptamine which is you

1235
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:07,140
know the source of it comes from the

1236
00:48:11,210 --> 00:48:09,330
Buffon toad and in the in the Sonoran

1237
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:11,220
Desert you know gives you gives you an

1238
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:14,490
immediate experience of Nirvana

1239
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:18,290
subject/object nan you know non-duality

1240
00:48:22,490 --> 00:48:20,970
subject/object pure bliss and there's

1241
00:48:25,190 --> 00:48:22,500
every reason to think that is underlying

1242
00:48:28,070 --> 00:48:25,200
you know the illusion of the manifest

1243
00:48:30,710 --> 00:48:28,080
reality but that doesn't change our

1244
00:48:33,710 --> 00:48:30,720
responsibility you know out out of our

1245
00:48:35,510 --> 00:48:33,720
innate empathic nature to deal with the

1246
00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:35,520
disaster that we've constructed on this

1247
00:48:42,050 --> 00:48:38,250
planet right now well that would be

1248
00:48:44,690 --> 00:48:42,060
another question right so we can we can

1249
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:44,700
talk about that as as whether that does

1250
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:48,090
you know here's here's I guess let me

1251
00:48:52,010 --> 00:48:49,680
finish the AMA story and then I'll make

1252
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:52,020
that point with another story so because

1253
00:48:55,420 --> 00:48:53,130
you've been to AMA right so you've been

1254
00:48:57,830 --> 00:48:55,430
there three times three hugs AMA is

1255
00:49:01,640 --> 00:48:57,840
amazing for anyone who's listening that

1256
00:49:04,820 --> 00:49:01,650
doesn't know is this woman of extremely

1257
00:49:07,730 --> 00:49:04,830
humble horrible really origins in India

1258
00:49:09,710 --> 00:49:07,740
who at a very early age felt this

1259
00:49:12,470 --> 00:49:09,720
awakening this spiritual transformation

1260
00:49:15,410 --> 00:49:12,480
that you went through and was guided to

1261
00:49:17,690 --> 00:49:15,420
help the world and the one thing that's

1262
00:49:19,340 --> 00:49:17,700
undeniable Lama if you go see her and

1263
00:49:21,410 --> 00:49:19,350
you're like this kind of skeptic what's

1264
00:49:23,330 --> 00:49:21,420
this game here whatever one is there

1265
00:49:25,460 --> 00:49:23,340
just beautiful people they they don't

1266
00:49:26,630 --> 00:49:25,470
charge anything you can go see armed and

1267
00:49:28,340 --> 00:49:26,640
get a hug and it doesn't cost you

1268
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:28,350
anything and if you want to stay there

1269
00:49:32,030 --> 00:49:30,090
it's a very minimal fee and they give

1270
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:32,040
you great food and all these classes

1271
00:49:38,060 --> 00:49:34,650
it's a great experience but the sheer

1272
00:49:41,540 --> 00:49:38,070
physical feat that she does of sitting

1273
00:49:43,670 --> 00:49:41,550
there 18 hours a day regularly hugging

1274
00:49:45,470 --> 00:49:43,680
one person after another you don't think

1275
00:49:47,090 --> 00:49:45,480
it sounds like a lot but it's it's got

1276
00:49:48,770 --> 00:49:47,100
to be grueling and sometimes when she

1277
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:48,780
goes to India it's not 18 hours a day

1278
00:49:54,650 --> 00:49:51,450
it's 24 it's just an amazing physical

1279
00:49:56,359 --> 00:49:54,660
feat and in indicial hug people for 18

1280
00:49:58,310 --> 00:49:56,369
hours and then she'll dig latrines right

1281
00:49:59,960 --> 00:49:58,320
but here's the story that Rick told me

1282
00:50:01,310 --> 00:49:59,970
that I thought was so amazing one of her

1283
00:50:03,530 --> 00:50:01,320
devotees goes up to Amma

1284
00:50:06,349 --> 00:50:03,540
at some point and says you know I don't

1285
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:06,359
get it at one point you're telling us

1286
00:50:10,580 --> 00:50:08,130
that this is all Maya this is all

1287
00:50:12,410 --> 00:50:10,590
illusion we don't have to worry about

1288
00:50:16,180 --> 00:50:12,420
this world and on the other end you're

1289
00:50:21,370 --> 00:50:16,190
so busy doing all this stuff right and

1290
00:50:25,970 --> 00:50:21,380
Alma's response is world what world so

1291
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:25,980
somewhere in between that story and your

1292
00:50:33,130 --> 00:50:28,290
story is a balance that I'd

1293
00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:33,140
to seek because I see Alma and I see her

1294
00:50:40,250 --> 00:50:35,730
call-to-action and her choice of how she

1295
00:50:42,770 --> 00:50:40,260
X is being different in some important

1296
00:50:44,330 --> 00:50:42,780
ways because it's about personal it's

1297
00:50:46,490 --> 00:50:44,340
about connection it's about

1298
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:46,500
heart-to-heart it's not about thinking

1299
00:50:53,510 --> 00:50:50,570
that we need to find our allies to go

1300
00:50:54,620 --> 00:50:53,520
fight this system versus that system and

1301
00:50:57,020 --> 00:50:54,630
change the world

1302
00:50:58,910 --> 00:50:57,030
what do you think about that yeah I just

1303
00:51:01,490 --> 00:50:58,920
I mean once again it's like every time

1304
00:51:04,550 --> 00:51:01,500
you try to characterize my perspective I

1305
00:51:06,410 --> 00:51:04,560
have an instant sense of total

1306
00:51:09,110 --> 00:51:06,420
retraction because I feel it's a

1307
00:51:11,870 --> 00:51:09,120
mischaracterization you know but but but

1308
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:11,880
it's subtle and and it's complex and and

1309
00:51:16,910 --> 00:51:14,370
you know I don't know if we're gonna get

1310
00:51:18,350 --> 00:51:16,920
you know to to to an agreement in the

1311
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:18,360
course of this conversation yeah I mean

1312
00:51:23,330 --> 00:51:20,640
you know as I said I agree that samsara

1313
00:51:26,210 --> 00:51:23,340
is Nirvana my whole perspective is that

1314
00:51:27,770 --> 00:51:26,220
it's out of our hearts that you know

1315
00:51:29,300 --> 00:51:27,780
that then first of I don't think hearts

1316
00:51:30,860 --> 00:51:29,310
and minds are separate I mean I think

1317
00:51:32,240 --> 00:51:30,870
there are neurons you know in the heart

1318
00:51:34,190 --> 00:51:32,250
you know the heart is also a thinking

1319
00:51:36,740 --> 00:51:34,200
organ you know and we have the capacity

1320
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:36,750
to descend into our hearts and think

1321
00:51:40,190 --> 00:51:38,610
from there and when we do that we

1322
00:51:42,260 --> 00:51:40,200
realize that you know this situation

1323
00:51:44,540 --> 00:51:42,270
that we're in is deeply right and

1324
00:51:46,610 --> 00:51:44,550
and and and and you know and we're

1325
00:51:51,220 --> 00:51:46,620
heading not everyone thinks that do you

1326
00:51:53,540 --> 00:51:51,230
think that but not everybody agrees okay

1327
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:53,550
well I'm just saying I mean you call me

1328
00:51:58,280 --> 00:51:56,370
you keep calling me on on some tone or

1329
00:51:59,720 --> 00:51:58,290
something that I have I mean you're just

1330
00:52:01,460 --> 00:51:59,730
kind of laying out this stuff and just

1331
00:52:03,500 --> 00:52:01,470
saying we have to accept it as truth

1332
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:03,510
well no there's two sides to it with

1333
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:06,090
artistic personality disorder you know

1334
00:52:10,460 --> 00:52:08,160
able to launch four thousand nuclear

1335
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:10,470
missiles at any moment you know we're

1336
00:52:15,830 --> 00:52:12,690
losing 10% of the Earth's remaining to

1337
00:52:21,140 --> 00:52:15,840
biodiversity every 10 to 15 years you

1338
00:52:22,700 --> 00:52:21,150
know I mean etc etc I mean I mean yes I

1339
00:52:24,260 --> 00:52:22,710
mean there are beautiful things about

1340
00:52:27,140 --> 00:52:24,270
the world and there's progress that's

1341
00:52:30,380 --> 00:52:27,150
happened you know but even some of that

1342
00:52:32,450 --> 00:52:30,390
you know is mm just you know like for

1343
00:52:34,010 --> 00:52:32,460
instance you know we are in love with

1344
00:52:36,350 --> 00:52:34,020
our gadgets that our smartphones in our

1345
00:52:38,300 --> 00:52:36,360
laptops but those are also causing not

1346
00:52:40,370 --> 00:52:38,310
only ecological destruction but genocide

1347
00:52:41,290 --> 00:52:40,380
it's estimated that 3 million people

1348
00:52:43,270 --> 00:52:41,300
have died and

1349
00:52:46,690 --> 00:52:43,280
you know Africa through Conflict

1350
00:52:48,070 --> 00:52:46,700
Minerals like you know so so you know it

1351
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:48,080
does seem to me that most people would

1352
00:52:52,390 --> 00:52:50,330
agree you know that that that you know

1353
00:52:55,780 --> 00:52:52,400
the situation is is is very difficult

1354
00:52:58,060 --> 00:52:55,790
and and and you know tilting towards

1355
00:53:00,760 --> 00:52:58,070
getting worse on many levels you know

1356
00:53:02,170 --> 00:53:00,770
maybe you know you know maybe it's not

1357
00:53:03,610 --> 00:53:02,180
universal that people would agree with

1358
00:53:05,230 --> 00:53:03,620
that it and you know yes in some ways

1359
00:53:07,090 --> 00:53:05,240
it's gotten better which I also address

1360
00:53:08,790 --> 00:53:07,100
in the book but the point is that you

1361
00:53:11,020 --> 00:53:08,800
know and I guess my perspective is

1362
00:53:13,150 --> 00:53:11,030
without getting to a systemic

1363
00:53:15,190 --> 00:53:13,160
understanding you know what we're doing

1364
00:53:17,380 --> 00:53:15,200
to ourselves Ike illogically you know

1365
00:53:20,170 --> 00:53:17,390
and so on and we're not going to be able

1366
00:53:22,330 --> 00:53:20,180
to have a systemic solution you know and

1367
00:53:23,980 --> 00:53:22,340
you know in the book I go into areas for

1368
00:53:26,110 --> 00:53:23,990
instance you know that are controversial

1369
00:53:27,910 --> 00:53:26,120
and I don't expect everybody to like

1370
00:53:30,190 --> 00:53:27,920
agree with the ideas in the book but

1371
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:30,200
just to have an alternative model you

1372
00:53:36,850 --> 00:53:32,690
know like an alternative vision for how

1373
00:53:38,050 --> 00:53:36,860
things could change you know I mean you

1374
00:53:41,110 --> 00:53:38,060
know so for instance in the book I talk

1375
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:41,120
about you know love and relationships

1376
00:53:45,550 --> 00:53:42,890
and alternatives you know people might

1377
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:45,560
look at in those areas to you know the

1378
00:53:50,260 --> 00:53:48,410
the nuclear family the monogamous you

1379
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:50,270
know model that that that you know has

1380
00:53:54,430 --> 00:53:52,010
been established since you know the

1381
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:54,440
origins of patriarchy and so on you know

1382
00:53:58,780 --> 00:53:56,090
and as I said I look at the potential

1383
00:54:00,370 --> 00:53:58,790
for you know reinventing the ways we

1384
00:54:03,550 --> 00:54:00,380
exchange value so that they're not

1385
00:54:05,860 --> 00:54:03,560
destructive to the Earth's ecology you

1386
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:05,870
know how we could rethink our political

1387
00:54:10,780 --> 00:54:08,690
systems that it's more based on you know

1388
00:54:12,490 --> 00:54:10,790
people having a continuous participation

1389
00:54:14,170 --> 00:54:12,500
rather than having you know it's

1390
00:54:15,790 --> 00:54:14,180
essentially meaningless vote every four

1391
00:54:18,490 --> 00:54:15,800
years which leans them to mass

1392
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:18,500
frustration and voting for you know

1393
00:54:21,550 --> 00:54:19,970
somebody who you know should not be

1394
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:21,560
anywhere near that's that type of power

1395
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:23,410
and so on and so on

1396
00:54:30,700 --> 00:54:27,290
great so again the book is how soon is

1397
00:54:32,530 --> 00:54:30,710
now how is the book going who do you

1398
00:54:34,690 --> 00:54:32,540
expect to reach with the book and what's

1399
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:34,700
been the effort so far and getting out

1400
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:37,370
the word lot been like book is still

1401
00:54:43,450 --> 00:54:39,650
just coming out just came out in the UK

1402
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:43,460
and you know I'm doing my best to get

1403
00:54:47,830 --> 00:54:45,290
the word out I tend to think it's a good

1404
00:54:50,590 --> 00:54:47,840
book you know I tend to think it's going

1405
00:54:51,820 --> 00:54:50,600
to change the way people think about the

1406
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:51,830
world I mean just yesterday you know I'd

1407
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:53,810
sent an early version PDF out to

1408
00:54:58,120 --> 00:54:54,170
somebody

1409
00:55:03,190 --> 00:54:58,130
like a surgeon and a you know investor

1410
00:55:05,050 --> 00:55:03,200
here and you know when he met me he was

1411
00:55:07,300 --> 00:55:05,060
really really thankful and grateful and

1412
00:55:08,530 --> 00:55:07,310
kept hugging me and telling me that you

1413
00:55:10,750 --> 00:55:08,540
know the book had given him a totally

1414
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:10,760
different perspective and actually I

1415
00:55:14,620 --> 00:55:11,810
thought it was quite intriguing that he

1416
00:55:17,590 --> 00:55:14,630
was a doctor because I feel in a way you

1417
00:55:20,380 --> 00:55:17,600
know a great doctor doesn't just treat

1418
00:55:21,820 --> 00:55:20,390
symptoms but gets down to causes and I

1419
00:55:24,310 --> 00:55:21,830
feel in a way that's what I had to do in

1420
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:24,320
the book is is get below the surface

1421
00:55:29,470 --> 00:55:26,810
level of the symptoms you know so we can

1422
00:55:31,660 --> 00:55:29,480
actually maybe have it have at least an

1423
00:55:33,340 --> 00:55:31,670
opportunity or possibility that we can

1424
00:55:34,210 --> 00:55:33,350
actually treat the causes because

1425
00:55:36,310 --> 00:55:34,220
otherwise we're just gonna keep

1426
00:55:38,530 --> 00:55:36,320
perpetuating this thing well I think all

1427
00:55:41,530 --> 00:55:38,540
of us who are out there and interested

1428
00:55:43,150 --> 00:55:41,540
in consciousness which how can you not

1429
00:55:45,730 --> 00:55:43,160
be interested in consciousness unless

1430
00:55:47,620 --> 00:55:45,740
you're a materialistic scientist but if

1431
00:55:49,150 --> 00:55:47,630
you're interested at all in the the

1432
00:55:52,030 --> 00:55:49,160
really revolution of consciousness you

1433
00:55:53,620 --> 00:55:52,040
have to applaud your work Daniel you've

1434
00:55:56,230 --> 00:55:53,630
been instrumental in bringing these

1435
00:55:58,600 --> 00:55:56,240
issues to the forefront and the

1436
00:56:00,370 --> 00:55:58,610
discussion is always good even if it

1437
00:56:03,100 --> 00:56:00,380
gets a little bit heated some certainly

1438
00:56:04,900 --> 00:56:03,110
very very happy that you decided to join

1439
00:56:07,270 --> 00:56:04,910
me today and talk about all this stuff

1440
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:07,280
and I do wish you the best of luck with

1441
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:08,810
the book Thanks I'm happy to do it again

1442
00:56:12,070 --> 00:56:10,490
but maybe maybe we can do a little

1443
00:56:15,150 --> 00:56:12,080
pregame beforehand to figure out how we

1444
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:15,160
could have a less contentious and more

1445
00:56:23,410 --> 00:56:22,090
alright fair enough

1446
00:56:24,940 --> 00:56:23,420
thank you talking about talk to you

1447
00:56:26,140 --> 00:56:24,950
again soon thanks again to Daniel

1448
00:56:28,270 --> 00:56:26,150
Pinchbeck for joining me today on

1449
00:56:29,980 --> 00:56:28,280
skeptic Oh after this interview which

1450
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:29,990
again sounded like it ended on

1451
00:56:37,090 --> 00:56:32,930
relatively good terms we had a very

1452
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:37,100
heated email exchange and I just have to

1453
00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:39,050
say the heat was really generated by

1454
00:56:42,490 --> 00:56:40,730
Daniel I guess I pushed a lot of his

1455
00:56:43,930 --> 00:56:42,500
buttons but it really centered around

1456
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:43,940
two points which I think are really

1457
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:46,490
central to what's going on and not just

1458
00:56:51,460 --> 00:56:48,610
politically but more broadly in the

1459
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:51,470
skeptical world that we kind of live in

1460
00:56:56,650 --> 00:56:54,130
in terms of spirituality and science

1461
00:56:59,440 --> 00:56:56,660
consciousness intersection and those had

1462
00:57:00,880 --> 00:56:59,450
to do with Climategate and it's a gate

1463
00:57:02,890 --> 00:57:00,890
believe it or not because he really

1464
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:02,900
pushed back with me in this email

1465
00:57:06,700 --> 00:57:04,970
exchange first about climate gain Eagles

1466
00:57:07,350 --> 00:57:06,710
totally blown out of proportion totally

1467
00:57:09,450 --> 00:57:07,360
blown out

1468
00:57:10,860 --> 00:57:09,460
portion and as you know if you've looked

1469
00:57:12,750 --> 00:57:10,870
into it I mean that's just total

1470
00:57:15,330 --> 00:57:12,760
I mean there's just no defense

1471
00:57:17,100 --> 00:57:15,340
for the idea for the evidence I guess I

1472
00:57:20,220 --> 00:57:17,110
should say that these scientists

1473
00:57:24,630 --> 00:57:20,230
conspired to cook the books and like I

1474
00:57:26,970 --> 00:57:24,640
told Daniel go read the emails read

1475
00:57:30,150 --> 00:57:26,980
professor Phil Jones emails about the

1476
00:57:31,890 --> 00:57:30,160
trick to hide the decline that's exactly

1477
00:57:33,750 --> 00:57:31,900
what he says we're trying to hide the

1478
00:57:35,310 --> 00:57:33,760
decline which is what everyone thought

1479
00:57:36,930 --> 00:57:35,320
they were doing and that's why everyone

1480
00:57:38,220 --> 00:57:36,940
was pressing for the data and they

1481
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:38,230
wouldn't release any of the data and

1482
00:57:42,930 --> 00:57:40,090
then they got the hands on the email and

1483
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:42,940
there it is saying hide the decline and

1484
00:57:47,010 --> 00:57:44,890
there's tons of those emails that say

1485
00:57:48,870 --> 00:57:47,020
that there's other emails that say don't

1486
00:57:50,790 --> 00:57:48,880
send this one to this guy and then the

1487
00:57:52,860 --> 00:57:50,800
real clincher you know delete all these

1488
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:52,870
emails tell everyone else to delete all

1489
00:57:58,980 --> 00:57:55,810
these emails go read this stuff it's

1490
00:58:01,200 --> 00:57:58,990
right there it's undeniable and it just

1491
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:01,210
surprises me when somebody like Daniel

1492
00:58:05,970 --> 00:58:03,250
then says like he did in our email

1493
00:58:08,220 --> 00:58:05,980
exchange well I there's been panels that

1494
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:08,230
have been put together and they found no

1495
00:58:13,110 --> 00:58:09,970
wrongdoing or nothing that serious

1496
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:13,120
anyway it's just unbelievable you know

1497
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:14,650
it reminds me of the Simpsons

1498
00:58:19,140 --> 00:58:17,050
when mayor Quimby you know says yeah I

1499
00:58:21,150 --> 00:58:19,150
put together a blue-ribbon panel and

1500
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:21,160
then Lennie says ah blue-ribbon you

1501
00:58:25,260 --> 00:58:22,450
can't get any better than that I mean

1502
00:58:27,660 --> 00:58:25,270
that's what it sounds like just read the

1503
00:58:31,110 --> 00:58:27,670
freaking emails and then with pizza gate

1504
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:31,120
oh man exactly the same I tell you

1505
00:58:37,710 --> 00:58:35,050
anyone who is really gone and read those

1506
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:37,720
Wikileak emails and read the Instagram

1507
00:58:42,570 --> 00:58:39,730
post and looked at all those pictures

1508
00:58:45,450 --> 00:58:42,580
and looked at all that crazy if

1509
00:58:48,150 --> 00:58:45,460
you've really done it if you've really

1510
00:58:50,670 --> 00:58:48,160
dug into it and you've looked at all the

1511
00:58:52,500 --> 00:58:50,680
evidence we have of this kind of

1512
00:58:55,110 --> 00:58:52,510
going on and in Nebraska with the

1513
00:58:57,990 --> 00:58:55,120
Franklin affair and in Belgium where the

1514
00:58:59,970 --> 00:58:58,000
highest ranking judicial officer was

1515
00:59:02,910 --> 00:58:59,980
deeply involved in covering this stuff

1516
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:02,920
up and in England and over and over and

1517
00:59:08,430 --> 00:59:05,290
over again if you've really looked at

1518
00:59:09,990 --> 00:59:08,440
all that and you can come and you can

1519
00:59:13,140 --> 00:59:10,000
talk to me you can send me an email

1520
00:59:15,930 --> 00:59:13,150
directly and tell me that pizza gate is

1521
00:59:18,780 --> 00:59:15,940
just fluff and there's nothing there and

1522
00:59:20,950 --> 00:59:18,790
it's just this crazy conspiracy theory

1523
00:59:24,190 --> 00:59:20,960
hey bring it on loved

1524
00:59:25,900 --> 00:59:24,200
here at love love love to be proven

1525
00:59:28,150 --> 00:59:25,910
wrong and pulled out of that cesspool

1526
00:59:30,099 --> 00:59:28,160
let me tell you that again if you

1527
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:30,109
followed this show you know this isn't

1528
00:59:34,599 --> 00:59:32,930
really my stuff I mean climate change

1529
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:34,609
isn't really my stuff

1530
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:37,250
certainly pizza gate and those kind of

1531
00:59:39,790 --> 00:59:39,290
evil scandals you know that's not really

1532
00:59:45,070 --> 00:59:39,800
my thing

1533
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:45,080
through the data to figure out what's

1534
00:59:50,740 --> 00:59:47,210
real so I can make better decisions

1535
00:59:52,630 --> 00:59:50,750
about how to live my life so what

1536
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:52,640
becomes frustrating for me and

1537
00:59:58,210 --> 00:59:55,490
challenging for me is when two people

1538
01:00:02,200 --> 00:59:58,220
like me and Daniel go looking for the

1539
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:02,210
data find the data and then wind up on

1540
01:00:06,730 --> 01:00:04,690
opposite ends of the debate I

1541
01:00:10,329 --> 01:00:06,740
acknowledge at this point that it

1542
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:10,339
happens but I can't resist wanting to

1543
01:00:16,210 --> 01:00:12,530
probe that and pick at that and

1544
01:00:18,940 --> 01:00:16,220
understand how that happens and that's

1545
01:00:21,609 --> 01:00:18,950
what I think for me this show was really

1546
01:00:23,530 --> 01:00:21,619
all about here's one question to tee up

1547
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:23,540
from this interview what do you think we

1548
01:00:27,310 --> 01:00:25,130
can do to increase the chances that

1549
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:27,320
intelligent people will be able to have

1550
01:00:32,670 --> 01:00:30,410
real dialogues about these issues and

1551
01:00:35,890 --> 01:00:32,680
get past the polarizing political

1552
01:00:38,220 --> 01:00:35,900
situation that we're in now do you think

1553
01:00:41,020 --> 01:00:38,230
that will happen or do you think we are

1554
01:00:44,079 --> 01:00:41,030
fundamentally stuck right now in a way

1555
01:00:46,930 --> 01:00:44,089
that is not going to immediately fix

1556
01:00:49,329 --> 01:00:46,940
itself so the way to answer that

1557
01:00:50,410 --> 01:00:49,339
question is through well I guess there's

1558
01:00:52,300 --> 01:00:50,420
a number of ways you can do it through

1559
01:00:53,740 --> 01:00:52,310
the skeptical website you can do it

1560
01:00:55,060 --> 01:00:53,750
through the skeptical forum which is

1561
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:55,070
where I like to hang out most of the

1562
01:00:59,740 --> 01:00:57,170
time you can connect with me on Facebook

1563
01:01:01,270 --> 01:00:59,750
or you can just think up the idea to

1564
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:01,280
yourself and not tell anyone and that

1565
01:01:05,710 --> 01:01:02,930
way we'll have no way of knowing which

1566
01:01:07,390 --> 01:01:05,720
really think I'm just kidding

1567
01:01:09,010 --> 01:01:07,400
I don't want you to do that I want you

1568
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:09,020
to connect and I want you to pump your

1569
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:11,450
ideas back into this community because I

1570
01:01:15,370 --> 01:01:13,490
love this skeptical community and I've

1571
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:15,380
gained so much from it and I want other

1572
01:01:19,990 --> 01:01:17,330
people to gain from it no matter what

1573
01:01:21,730 --> 01:01:20,000
your view is so so I do hope you come to

1574
01:01:23,170 --> 01:01:21,740
the skeptical table I do hope you tell

1575
01:01:24,609 --> 01:01:23,180
me what you're thinking I do hope you

1576
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:24,619
share this show with other people and

1577
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:27,170
get them involved in the conversation as

1578
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:29,210
well so I have a number of interesting

1579
01:01:33,010 --> 01:01:31,250
shows coming up I can't remember off the

1580
01:01:33,410 --> 01:01:33,020
top of my head how they all come and

1581
01:01:35,150 --> 01:01:33,420
order

1582
01:01:36,530 --> 01:01:35,160
because some of them are kind of chopped

1583
01:01:39,049 --> 01:01:36,540
up but there's some really interesting

1584
01:01:41,299 --> 01:01:39,059
stuff coming up I love doing this stuff

1585
01:01:42,950 --> 01:01:41,309
and I think I have some good content to

1586
01:01:45,380 --> 01:01:42,960
bring you in the future do stick around

1587
01:01:45,710 --> 01:01:45,390
for all of that until next time take

1588
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:45,720
care